References on harmonic analysis.

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Knut
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Re: References on harmonic analysis.

Post by Knut » 04 Dec 2016, 11:32

tisimst wrote:
Knut wrote:I would rely on kerning pairs and a vast catalogue of precomposed glyphs to be called from the keyboard using some kind of code scheme...

The entered code would call upon a series of precomposed glyphs, ...

The scheme could probably be simplified, but you would need to keep the different plains of script separate, and the whole thing well structured.
Solely relying upon OpenType functionality, I don't think there's really any other way than what you have described: lots of precomposed composite glyphs and a bunch of well-defined substitution rules. You wouldn't be able to create arbitrary composite glyphs on the fly, so you'd need to work out all the sensible permutations before hand. Thankfully, creating the glyphs isn't very hard. Just takes some time to set it up properly and requires a word processor that will follow the prescribed substitution rules.

Thanks, tisimst!

That's reassuring.
As long as the amount of glyphs is manageable, would you consider any other solutions than except relying on OpenType functionality?

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tisimst
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Re: References on harmonic analysis.

Post by tisimst » 04 Dec 2016, 17:51

Other than using a different application/syntax (e.g., LaTeX), I don't see a convenient way around it. I would pursue the OpenType route unless the target app doesn't support it well. Worst case, you can open an app that shows all the glyphs in a font (e.g., charmap on Windows) that allows you to copy the desired glyph directly and paste it as a single Unicode character. This is tedious, but might assure the job gets done.
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OCTO
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Re: References on harmonic analysis.

Post by OCTO » 04 Dec 2016, 17:57

tisimst wrote:Other than using a different application/syntax (e.g., LaTeX), I don't see a convenient way around it.
Is it possible to implement Latex in LilyPond as a native language in one, single document?
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OCTO
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Re: References on harmonic analysis.

Post by OCTO » 04 Dec 2016, 18:11

And oh yes, I have completely forgotten about this:
http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/ ... -for-music
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tisimst
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References on harmonic analysis.

Post by tisimst » 05 Dec 2016, 05:57

OCTO wrote:
tisimst wrote:Other than using a different application/syntax (e.g., LaTeX), I don't see a convenient way around it.
Is it possible to implement Latex in LilyPond as a native language in one, single document?
Yes and no. There's a way to embed LilyPond scores directly into LaTeX documents, but not the other way around. However, there are lots of markup macros that have some fancy functionality and if one doesn't exist, they aren't too hard to create.
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tisimst
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Re: References on harmonic analysis.

Post by tisimst » 05 Dec 2016, 08:17

I just remembered a LilyPond snippet that reminded me of what you posted on tex.stackexchange: http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=967.

It's not identical to your requested functionality, and certainly not for the faint of heart in its current state (click on the image on that page to see the code that created it), but it at least shows that such a thing is possible in LilyPond with a little bit of coding.
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OCTO
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Re: References on harmonic analysis.

Post by OCTO » 05 Dec 2016, 09:56

That is very nice, indeed! Now being solely a composer, I have less interest in the harmonic analysis, but in the case I would need for teaching purposes, perhaps learning LP or LaTeX is the way to do it.
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Knut
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Re: References on harmonic analysis.

Post by Knut » 05 Dec 2016, 12:18

tisimst wrote:Other than using a different application/syntax (e.g., LaTeX), I don't see a convenient way around it. I would pursue the OpenType route unless the target app doesn't support it well. Worst case, you can open an app that shows all the glyphs in a font (e.g., charmap on Windows) that allows you to copy the desired glyph directly and paste it as a single Unicode character. This is tedious, but might assure the job gets done.
My thoughts exactly. Thank you, tisimst!
I don't know if this is of any interest to you, but in the event you are going to add some fonts for musical analysis to your MTF catalogue at some point, it might be worth collaborating on a substitution scheme. If you're interested, please let me know.

Thank you both for The LaTex/LilyPond examples. They are indeed very interesting, and adequate solutions in many cases. None of them deliver perfect typographical results, however. There's also an immense benefit to being able to type these directly into the score or text editor of your choice, instead of having to rely on special software.

Support for Advanced OT features is pretty dodgy or even non-existent in many scoring applications, but ligatures and simple substitution seems to be quite broadly supported, at least on the mac platform. The font route seems like the best way to go, provided one can automate much of the composite generation.

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tisimst
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Re: References on harmonic analysis.

Post by tisimst » 05 Dec 2016, 16:33

Knut wrote:I don't know if this is of any interest to you, but in the event you are going to add some fonts for musical analysis to your MTF catalogue at some point, it might be worth collaborating on a substitution scheme. If you're interested, please let me know.
Of, course! Let's talk more when we've got some concrete files and examples and we'll see if it's worth pursuing. I plan on (eventually) adding some text fonts that are idiosyncratic with historical published music, so I don't see any reason why a musical analysis font couldn't be in it as well.
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Knut
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Re: References on harmonic analysis.

Post by Knut » 18 Dec 2016, 15:27

tisimst wrote: Of, course! Let's talk more when we've got some concrete files and examples and we'll see if it's worth pursuing. I plan on (eventually) adding some text fonts that are idiosyncratic with historical published music, so I don't see any reason why a musical analysis font couldn't be in it as well.
Great!

I'm looking into the best possible solutions at the moment. Seeing as four levels of script is a minimum for function theory, I think relying on kerning pairs is a better core functionality to rely upon than composite glyphs and ligatures. I don't know how many glyphs a font may theoretically contain, but composites of all necessary interval variations would almost certainly be way too high.

Some aspects though, like interval numbers below the main function, would have to be addressed using composites and ligatures.

Let's continue the discussion when I have some concrete examples, and see if it's worth coming up with some kind of common standard.

OCTO,

I've finally received Lexicon der Harmonilehre. It's a great resource and very comprehensive, so thank's very much for the tip. I am, however, quite disappointed with the books typography, which I have to say is lacking in many different ways. Perhaps this is a good indication of how much a modern easy-to-use solution for this kind of text is needed?

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