Posting non-PD music

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OCTO
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Posting non-PD music

Post by OCTO » 09 Feb 2016, 09:21

Hello.

There are some thoughts on how we should deal with putting small snippets of non-PD worldwide music on this site.

Let me know your comments how we should deal with this.
The worst could be that some publisher protests with legal means.
Many publishers do have their music for review online, without restrictions for displaying it on screen.

DatOrganistTho
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Re: Posting non-PD music

Post by DatOrganistTho » 09 Feb 2016, 16:37

Legally, this is strictly a NO without consent of the copyright holder.

However, if this were the case in every instance of internet, there would likely be no internet.

So, I believe that the forum should have a DMCA notice of compliance of sorts, explaining that no one profits from this website, but that it will honor any copyright holder's desire to remove snippets.

I highly doubt this will become a problem without a DMCA notice anyway.

One thing we need to stray away from is posting entire works or even entire pages of a work (unless it is absolutely necessary). This will prevent the big-government types from being misled that we might be a file-sharing site "cleverly disguised" as a forum community.

These are my initial thoughts.
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OCTO
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Re: Posting non-PD music

Post by OCTO » 09 Feb 2016, 17:19

I agree completely!

An interesting question: what happens legally if a picture is hosted at a site (A) that owns the copyright of that picture, but another site (B) that doesn't own copyright of that picture embeds it to display on this (B) site?
A very tricky question?

It would be good to make a consensus for all users to know the rules.

This site also doesn't sell anything nor has adverts.

Another option would be to have a private subforum, but for me it is a degradation of free opinion and thoughts.
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DatOrganistTho
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Re: Posting non-PD music

Post by DatOrganistTho » 10 Feb 2016, 01:47

OCTO wrote:I agree completely!

An interesting question: what happens legally if a picture is hosted at a site (A) that owns the copyright of that picture, but another site (B) that doesn't own copyright of that picture embeds it to display on this (B) site?
A very tricky question?

It would be good to make a consensus for all users to know the rules.

This site also doesn't sell anything nor has adverts.

Another option would be to have a private subforum, but for me it is a degradation of free opinion and thoughts.
Thanks for responding!
It would be good to make a consensus for all users to know the rules.
It is simply that A) either own the copyright or have gotten permission for it, or B) Post a minimal example (as to not diminish the value of the work) and be ready to remove said image if a DMCA notice is served to the forum. Honestly, it is all very cordial and polite for first warnings. They usually do not intend (if such a thing were to occur) to seek any real legal action unless the accused does not respond quickly.
An interesting question: what happens legally if a picture is hosted at a site (A) that owns the copyright of that picture, but another site (B) that doesn't own copyright of that picture embeds it to display on this (B) site?
A very tricky question?
Actually it is not that tricky! DMCA is concerned far less about who displays it and more concerned about where it is stored. If you were to link that file/image on the original server of the copyright owner in your own page, so long as the viewer can easily find where that picture is stored, then you are fine. Some copyright holders do have a preference, but most won't get mad at you for linking to something they are hosting on their own servers.

EDIT:
Another option would be to have a private subforum, but for me it is a degradation of free opinion and thoughts.
Please don't do that. ;)
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cGilmore
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Re: Posting non-PD music

Post by cGilmore » 11 Feb 2016, 03:33

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on tv, but…

Fair Use allows for copying of music for educational purposes as long as it's not a "performance unit". Whether a forum can be officially classified as an education institution or whatnot, you got me.

Also, Fair Use allows for reproduction for comment or criticism, which I think most directly applies here. Again, it can't be a whole reproduction of the work but excerpts. What we're doing here is no different than the New York Times publishing an excerpt from a book or poem to use in a review or editorial.

Regarding international copyright laws, this maybe a cultural (read: American) attitude, but I have a hard enough time keeping up with changing traffic laws around here. Adding other countries' laws is a bit out of my wheelhouse. Ignorance is no excuse, but I'll play that card until forced to do otherwise. ;)
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OCTO
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Re: Posting non-PD music

Post by OCTO » 11 Feb 2016, 05:55

Let us agree on this:
If you need to give an example of non-PD score or any typeset music that is under copyright, please use as small snippet as possible to describe what you intend.

In Windows and Mac it is very easy to take screenshot of a portion of your screen so you can use that method to capture details. You can also cut off the picture in a simple picture editor.

I have seen on other big forums (including official Sibelius and MakeMusic forums) numerous posting of copyrighted examples and they are still there.
As long as it is not posted an entire piece or big part of it, I believe there is no problem.
cGilmore wrote: Fair Use allows for copying of music for educational purposes as long as it's not a "performance unit". Whether a forum can be officially classified as an education institution or whatnot, you got me.
Educational (very interesting reflection, thanks): in Sweden you can copy a copyrighted book for your class, maximum 15% of a book AND maximum 15 pages (in the case book has more than 100 pages). So, right, this forum is definitely educational.

As the final thought: the website and domain owner is responsible for the content.

Therefore feel free to post what you want and than it will be removed if questions arise.
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Re: Posting non-PD music

Post by DatOrganistTho » 11 Feb 2016, 23:12

Fair Use allows for copying of music for educational purposes as long as it's not a "performance unit". Whether a forum can be officially classified as an education institution or whatnot, you got me.
This is a BIG, and I mean, BIG misnomer. Fair Use does not grant any one rights to copy something. It simply allows someone to transmit and store personal copies of copyrighted material for "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research," without fear of reprisal. The copyright holder can still ask you to remove or destroy those copies. They can still seek legal recourse if they believe you have violated Fair Use.

At the end of the day it doesn't allow you the right to copy said material, but merely be allowed to transmit it for non-performance and non-public retrieval.

For instance, many music publishers still require you to publish an immensely tedious copyright disclaimer for using examples in a dissertation, and if you don't do that, even though it is "private" and in small snippets (that doesn't deprive the work), the copyright holder can charge you an enormous fee for "fair use" of those examples and/or take you to court.
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Re: Posting non-PD music

Post by DatOrganistTho » 11 Feb 2016, 23:13

OCTO wrote:Let us agree on this:
If you need to give an example of non-PD score or any typeset music that is under copyright, please use as small snippet as possible to describe what you intend.

In Windows and Mac it is very easy to take screenshot of a portion of your screen so you can use that method to capture details. You can also cut off the picture in a simple picture editor.

I have seen on other big forums (including official Sibelius and MakeMusic forums) numerous posting of copyrighted examples and they are still there.
As long as it is not posted an entire piece or big part of it, I believe there is no problem.
cGilmore wrote: Fair Use allows for copying of music for educational purposes as long as it's not a "performance unit". Whether a forum can be officially classified as an education institution or whatnot, you got me.
Educational (very interesting reflection, thanks): in Sweden you can copy a copyrighted book for your class, maximum 15% of a book AND maximum 15 pages (in the case book has more than 100 pages). So, right, this forum is definitely educational.

As the final thought: the website and domain owner is responsible for the content.

Therefore feel free to post what you want and than it will be removed if questions arise.
I agree. Your disclaimer was well written, and I think it gets the point across.
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DatOrganistTho
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Re: Posting non-PD music

Post by DatOrganistTho » 11 Feb 2016, 23:16

cGilmore wrote:I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on tv, but…

Fair Use allows for copying of music for educational purposes as long as it's not a "performance unit". Whether a forum can be officially classified as an education institution or whatnot, you got me.

Also, Fair Use allows for reproduction for comment or criticism, which I think most directly applies here. Again, it can't be a whole reproduction of the work but excerpts. What we're doing here is no different than the New York Times publishing an excerpt from a book or poem to use in a review or editorial.

Regarding international copyright laws, this maybe a cultural (read: American) attitude, but I have a hard enough time keeping up with changing traffic laws around here. Adding other countries' laws is a bit out of my wheelhouse. Ignorance is no excuse, but I'll play that card until forced to do otherwise. ;)
Also, Fair Use doesn't apply with your New York Times editorial example. They pay for a royalty service for posting those excerpts and still have to post any copyright notice the copyright holder wants or else they cannot publish it. There is an implicit acceptance of Fair Use in most instances for large corporations, but just because they are commenting or criticizing doesn't mean they can get away with posting portions of the work without acknowledgement of copyright.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Posting non-PD music

Post by John Ruggero » 12 Feb 2016, 22:05

As a case in point, I wanted to post an excerpt about Arnold Arnstein from an article in the New York TImes Magazine from 1966 concerning the premiere of Barber's Anthony and Cleopatra. I am probably the first person who ever approached them about excerpting the several paragraphs from this longish article and possibly the last. After several months, I am still in a cue waiting for a "quote" on how much they will charge me; maybe they misplaced my request.

For me, this is an example of the unfair use of copyright laws. Articles in news periodicals should have a short copyright period, and the New York Times is no exception. They want to make money on a few paragraphs from an article that is 50 years old! Shame, shame, shame...
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