Composers vs Editors: A Helpful Addition?

Discuss the rules of notation, standard notation practices, efficient notation practices and graphic design.
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1643
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Composers vs Editors: A Helpful Addition?

Post by John Ruggero »

Thanks, OCTO!

While Ravel loved to orchestrate his piano works, he did not orchestrate this piece or the other two in the set of "Gaspard de la Nuit." There is a certain kind of piano music that is very difficult to orchestrate, and I think that even Ravel was stumped by these pieces, which he intended to be the ne plus ultra of piano playing. But I have heard pretty good orchestrations of Chopin, whose music is also difficult to orchestrate, so maybe someone is up for the challenge?
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1336
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Composers vs Editors: A Helpful Addition?

Post by OCTO »

My question is rather a dialectic one.
If we cut the LH into three clarinets they should have nested tuplets in order to coordinate with the upper voices.
1. tuplet 3 :4 : 2 :4
2. tuplets inside of it divided by (8 :1 ) + (7 :2 : 4 :2 ) + (6 :2 : 4 :2 )

And in Ravel's music these ratios should probably be omitted.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2019 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 10 • Digital Performer 9 /// MacOS Mojave, (side system: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

Callasmaniac
Posts: 12
Joined: 07 Oct 2015, 17:22

Re: Composers vs Editors: A Helpful Addition?

Post by Callasmaniac »

I would put it to one clarinet (in A!) and edit the ending note octave up (or something - or give it to bass clarinet). Nested tuplets, yes but also edit slightly: up in 8 1/32's, the down 4 1/32 + 1/16 triplet and 1/16 sextuplet (these all inside a triplet). More practical and certainly easier to play in rhythm.

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1336
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Composers vs Editors: A Helpful Addition?

Post by OCTO »

Callasmaniac wrote:I would put it to one clarinet (in A!) and edit the ending note octave up (or something - or give it to bass clarinet). Nested tuplets, yes but also edit slightly: up in 8 1/32's, the down 4 1/32 + 1/16 triplet and 1/16 sextuplet (these all inside a triplet). More practical and certainly easier to play in rhythm.
My question was not orchestrational, but notational.
But if you mention clarinets, here is a typical ravelian solution, in three clarinets:
20160211_121411-1.jpg
20160211_121411-1.jpg (123.33 KiB) Viewed 5032 times
1 clarinet in A
2 clarinet in A
3 bass clarinet in Bb
Last edited by OCTO on 11 Feb 2016, 11:23, edited 1 time in total.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2019 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 10 • Digital Performer 9 /// MacOS Mojave, (side system: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

User avatar
David Ward
Posts: 321
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 19:50
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Composers vs Editors: A Helpful Addition?

Post by David Ward »

OCTO wrote:… … … here is a typical ravelian solution, in three clarinets:
Exactement!
Finale 25.5 & F 26.2.2
Mac OS 10.13.6 & 10.14.6
http://www.composers-uk.com/davidward/news.htm

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1643
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Composers vs Editors: A Helpful Addition?

Post by John Ruggero »

Sorry I misunderstood your excellent point, OCTO., that the LH is actually nested tuplets within the RH tuplet. The measure is quite a sophisticated affair!

But you got me thinking about an orchestration of Gaspard and why it hasn't been done. Unlike Chopin, it is so orchestral in feeling in spite of its pianistic origin and could be an orchestral show-stopper. Maybe Ravel just didn't get around to it.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1643
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Composers vs Editors: A Helpful Addition?

Post by John Ruggero »

Callasmaniac's solution of 4 + 3 within the septuplet sounds like a very practical one and would help produce the effect of a gradual slowing down within the whole affair.

In an actual orchestration, the final LH sextuplet would almost certainly have to be an octave lower to produce the right feeling of ebbing away and because the B#'s, first and last notes of the 21-note group, is the bass voice dropping one octave to lead to the low bass note in the next measure.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1336
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: RE: Re: Composers vs Editors: A Helpful Addition?

Post by OCTO »

John Ruggero wrote: In an actual orchestration, the final LH sextuplet would almost certainly have to be an octave lower to produce the right feeling of ebbing away and because the B#'s, first and last notes of the 21-note group, is the bass voice dropping one octave to lead to the low bass note in the next measure.
Yes. In my example is certainly is so (bass clarinet transposed).
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2019 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 10 • Digital Performer 9 /// MacOS Mojave, (side system: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1643
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Composers vs Editors: A Helpful Addition?

Post by John Ruggero »

OCTO, I am so sorry, I got "three clarinets" in my head, failed to see the B. Cl key signature, and read your clear indications of instrumentation to see that that was exactly what you had done.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1336
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Composers vs Editors: A Helpful Addition?

Post by OCTO »

John, you gave me idea to orchestrate Gaspard.
Tricky task but it could be done....!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2019 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 10 • Digital Performer 9 /// MacOS Mojave, (side system: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

Post Reply