Extreme dynamics

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DatOrganistTho
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Re: Extreme dynamics

Post by DatOrganistTho » 13 Mar 2016, 01:47

John Ruggero wrote:John Ruggero wrote
It is the dynamic that the Classical composers expected when they placed no initial dynamic marking in a piece.
DatOrganistTho wrote:
Not true. Not until Bartok did anyone see this happen.
Sorry, I don't quite understand your objection. I hope I am applying to the right comment in my post.

Is it about Classical composers omitting initial dynamic markings? if so, check any authentic edition of the Haydn Piano Sonatas;

Or that this situation should be interpreted as mF? Some might argue F instead of mF and show cases where F is a better choice. I think it varies with the character of the music. Sometimes a later repetition of the same material clarifies the intended dynamic.

I am intrigued about Bartok. Omitting markings is not something I associate with Bartok. Where does Bartok omit initial dynamics other than in a a few educational pieces like the first few in Microcosmos?
I've miscommunication: I'm trying to say that mf/mp was never a choice to composers to begin a piece before "Bartok."

I've got to find some research I did a while back to backup what I have to say, but basically if you look at autographs of classical music (pre-bartok) you do not find dynamics like mf/mp listed at the beginning of a piece (unless it is after another movement). This is because "mezzo" meant "middle" during what is considered pre-20th century music. It only became a more concrete term to mean "medium" loud in the 20th century (Modernism).

This may not be an appropriate comment for this sub, but since you brought it up, I thought I'd jab a quick retort here. I'll post something on this independently in a bit.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Extreme dynamics

Post by John Ruggero » 13 Mar 2016, 05:39

You are right, DatOrganistTho, a whole lotta miscommunications goin' on.

1.Yes, one will not see initial mF or mP markings in Classical style music (with a capitol C = music from about 1750-1826, which includes Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven.)

However, I never said that one DID see such markings. I said that the absence of initial dynamic signs of any kind in composers like Haydn and Mozart indicates a neutral dynamic, which is what one might consider mF to mean. I should have said that it can mean an initial F depending on context.

2. However during the Romantic period (from about 1825-1900 and long before Bartok) initial mP and mF markings may be observed:

Here are three that I found in just a few minutes of looking:

Chopin Mazurka op. 56 no. 3 (1844) begins mF:

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usi ... 00411q.pdf

The last two pieces of Brahms piano pieces op. 76 (nos. 7 and 8) both begin mP. (1879)

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usi ... S._324.pdf
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erelievonen
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Re: Extreme dynamics

Post by erelievonen » 13 Mar 2016, 23:32

John Ruggero wrote: Nothing intentional, I assure you. Just my way of dealing with the problem of notating musical symbols in these posts. It is more trouble than I want to expend to embolden and italicize small letters to make them sufficiently significant to look like a music font, and since it seems to get the point across, and I didn't think that anyone really cared about it, that is what I do.
Thank you for the explanation, John. The perceived typographical incongruence of the capital P's and F's disturbs me much less now, knowing you had a reason for doing so (regardless of whether I agree with that reason or not). :)
I also didn't mean that you should be using bold italic letters for representing dynamic signs – I agree that's a lot of trouble. In my opinion, "mp" and "mf" (in plain letters) get the message across just as well (and without typographical incongruence). Even certain editions do so, such as the Neue Mozart Ausgabe!

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Re: Extreme dynamics

Post by John Ruggero » 14 Mar 2016, 02:23

You are most welcome, Ere. While the incongruence bothered you, the congruence bothers me! Amusing.

I've always thought those NMA dynamics looked pretty cool, but the context is so different.
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