How many slashes for unmeasured tremolos (including beamed)?

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David Ward
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Re: How many slashes for unmeasured tremolos (including beamed)?

Post by David Ward » 23 Mar 2016, 17:14

OCTO wrote:… and probably not the tie.
I think (not sure though: opinions?) that the tie is only correct for unmeasured tremolos.

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John Ruggero
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Re: How many slashes for unmeasured tremolos (including beamed)?

Post by John Ruggero » 23 Mar 2016, 17:58

Gould page 225: "Ties may join consecutive unmeasured tremolo notes of the same pitch to discourage any slight accent…"

I pondered the tie, OCTO, but finally used it for the reason given by Gould above. But I think you and she are probably right, ties should be restricted to unmeasured tremolos. Yet, another case occurs to me. Would it be better to tie as at A or B to show the syncopation?
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Re: How many slashes for unmeasured tremolos (including beamed)?

Post by John Ruggero » 23 Mar 2016, 18:02

Sorry, David, I didn't see your post while I was writing mine.
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Re: How many slashes for unmeasured tremolos (including beamed)?

Post by OCTO » 23 Mar 2016, 20:26

John Ruggero wrote:Gould page 225: "Ties may join consecutive unmeasured tremolo notes of the same pitch to discourage any slight accent…"

I pondered the tie, OCTO, but finally used it for the reason given by Gould above. But I think you and she are probably right, ties should be restricted to unmeasured tremolos. Yet, another case occurs to me. Would it be better to tie as at A or B to show the syncopation?

Image
I have to disagree with Gould. No string player would play accent in tremolo / repetitions, except (and maybe!) in amateur or school orchestras.

For "measured tremolo" correctly abbreviations for rhythmic values: NEVER tie nor dashed tie.
For "unmeasured tremolo" correctly tremolo: never tie; only new editions (starting from Boosey) dashed ties.

I don't remember I have seen dashed tremolos in earlier than Bartok. In Bartok these are found, interestingly I don't know that it is an addon by editor or his. In Stravinsky I don't remember dashed ties are found in the first editions. I don't see these dashed ties in Universal for instance. I haven't made any deeper investigation but omitting these is not a "mistake".
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Re: How many slashes for unmeasured tremolos (including beamed)?

Post by OCTO » 23 Mar 2016, 20:29

ADD: ties should be omitted with tremolo, only because tie represents on the bowed instrument HELD tone.
Now I understand, Bartok's dashed tie represents visualisation of the length, and absolutely has nothing to do to avoid the accents.
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Re: How many slashes for unmeasured tremolos (including beamed)?

Post by David Ward » 23 Mar 2016, 21:29

This has raised a very odd question in my own mind. I have for decades written ties with tremolos (unmeasured), long before my use of Finale, let alone my reading of Elaine Gould's book. But where did I get this idea from? I've just checked a whole lot of published scores in which I'd have guessed that such ties might be used, going straight to sections in which I know there are string tremolos held for several bars at least without any pitch change. In not a single one of these scores (other than my own) can I find tied tremolos, and I've just looked at tremolos which I thought might have been tied in at least two dozen scores.

Question, where did I (and indeed Gould) get this idea from? It must have come from somewhere: I didn't invent the idea (nor I suppose did Gould, although her reference to the possibility of unwanted accents does seem spurious).

That said, my (unnecessarily, apparently) tied tremolos have never raised any queries from performers.
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Re: How many slashes for unmeasured tremolos (including beamed)?

Post by John Ruggero » 23 Mar 2016, 21:33

I didn't quite understand, OCTO. Are saying that no tremolos, measured or unmeasured, should ever be tied? If so, then you have answered my question about my example! But maybe you would approve of the dashed ties because of your comment about Bartok? I too have seen the Bartok dashed ties. Perhaps his pianistic background was an influence.

Here are tied and certainly measured tremolos (see the measured trills in the other parts) in Ravel's La Valse:
Ravel tied tremolos.jpg
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And aren't tied trills (which abound in music) and the tied tremolos very similar? I think of all those timpani tied tremolos notated with a trill symbol.
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Re: How many slashes for unmeasured tremolos (including beamed)?

Post by David Ward » 23 Mar 2016, 22:01

Maybe it's a French practice. I've just found these tied tremolos in Boulez (albeit for vibraphone). I haven't checked Messiaen.

Also, perhaps it is explained here by the use of the pedal. This might need more research …
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Re: How many slashes for unmeasured tremolos (including beamed)?

Post by OCTO » 23 Mar 2016, 22:12

That is a good example, John! But I still believe this is an exception.

I still trust my experience that no dashed stems should be tied.
Go for any Violin part in Wagner /Mahler / Brahms / Beethoven / Respighi / Stravinsky / Berg etc. for reference.
You can find another exception, but the rule above, which I suggest, occupy the greatest majority of tremolo writing in the bowed string literature.
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Re: How many slashes for unmeasured tremolos (including beamed)?

Post by OCTO » 23 Mar 2016, 22:14

David Ward wrote:Maybe it's a French practice. I've just found these tied tremolos in Boulez (albeit for vibraphone). I haven't checked Messiaen.

Also, perhaps it is explained here by the use of the pedal. This might need more research …
David, we need here strings reference. Vibraphone can only do cresc-decresc with tremolo.
But maybe it is also just Boulez-style (everything about tying is ..."special"), certainly can be found in bowed strings.
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