Cross Staff - spacing

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OCTO
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Cross Staff - spacing

Post by OCTO » 10 May 2016, 13:46

I continue from another thread:
Knut wrote: Btw, regardless of the stance one takes on this issue, it's important to note that all stem-up notes adjacent to the barline must receive space compensation on optical grounds in the same way as any stem up-note followed by a stem-down note:
Ex-1.jpg
Ex-1.jpg (7.98 KiB) Viewed 5273 times
So my question is following, is this a good spacing?
MuseScore:
MUSESCORE DEFAULT
MUSESCORE DEFAULT
shot 5.png (19.39 KiB) Viewed 5273 times
Finale:
FINALE DEFAULT
FINALE DEFAULT
shot 7.png (20.79 KiB) Viewed 5273 times
My "correction" would be:
MUSESCORE EDITED
MUSESCORE EDITED
shot 4.png (18.83 KiB) Viewed 5273 times
FINALE EDITED
FINALE EDITED
shot 8.png (21.03 KiB) Viewed 5273 times
But I am unsure if it is more correct?

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John Ruggero
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Re: Cross Staff - spacing

Post by John Ruggero » 10 May 2016, 14:25

IMO, the edited Finale version has the correct spacing. The stems should be equally spaced, not the note heads.

I would bring the staves closer together and flatten the beam, since the pattern is static.
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Knut
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Re: Cross Staff - spacing

Post by Knut » 10 May 2016, 14:46

John is right about the principle. However, to my eyes, none of your edits has nailed this exactly, even if your Finale version is pretty close.

Here's how I think it should look:
Skjermbilde 2016-05-10 kl. 16.40.35.png
Skjermbilde 2016-05-10 kl. 16.40.35.png (97.81 KiB) Viewed 5263 times

OCTO
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Re: Cross Staff - spacing

Post by OCTO » 10 May 2016, 16:09

Knut wrote:John is right about the principle. However, to my eyes, none of your edits has nailed this exactly, even if your Finale version is pretty close.

Here's how I think it should look:
Yes, it was my rush job. This is absolutely better.

What software can do the correct output by default? Any plug-in for Finale?

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tisimst
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Re: Cross Staff - spacing

Post by tisimst » 10 May 2016, 21:34

OCTO wrote:What software can do the correct output by default?
LilyPond does exactly this by default:
default-lilypond-cross-staff-spacing.png
default-lilypond-cross-staff-spacing.png (29.78 KiB) Viewed 5236 times
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Knut
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Re: Cross Staff - spacing

Post by Knut » 10 May 2016, 21:53

OCTO wrote:What software can do the correct output by default? Any plug-in for Finale?
[/quote]

As shown by tisimst, Lilypond is the only currently available software I know of (perhaps with the exception of SCORE) that will do this and all other optical spacing compensations automatically.

As far as I know, there's no plug-in that will help with these calculations in Finale, unfortunately.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Cross Staff - spacing

Post by John Ruggero » 11 May 2016, 01:52

I think that OCTO's edited Finale version is actually better, because the notes in each hand should be equally spaced on each staff through the measure, even if they are not equally spaced in relationship to the note heads in the other hand.

As I mentioned previously, since there is no net movement, the beam should be horizontal. This is mentioned in E. Gould. And it is best if the staves not be too far apart.

Here is an example to give the idea. It is not perfect.
Cross-beamed notes.jpg
Cross-beamed notes.jpg (32.73 KiB) Viewed 5223 times
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Knut
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Re: Cross Staff - spacing

Post by Knut » 11 May 2016, 06:52

John Ruggero wrote:I think that OCTO's edited Finale version is actually better, because the notes in each hand should be equally spaced on each staff through the measure, even if they are not equally spaced in relationship to the note heads in the other hand.

As I mentioned previously, since there is no net movement, the beam should be horizontal. This is mentioned in E. Gould. And it is best if the staves not be too far apart.

Here is an example to give the idea. It is not perfect.

Cross-beamed notes.jpg
I agree.

The important thing here is not to forget about the spacing between the beam groups, which should be given the same amount of space as everything else to make the spacing completely even.

OCTO
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Re: Cross Staff - spacing

Post by OCTO » 11 May 2016, 10:16

I think we all agree about the way it should be. Is there any clear reference in the engraving rules literature about it?
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Knut
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Re: Cross Staff - spacing

Post by Knut » 11 May 2016, 10:29

OCTO wrote:I think we all agree about the way it should be. Is there any clear reference in the engraving rules literature about it?
Yes, this is addressed in Die Praxis des Notengraphikers by Herbert Chlapik. There's a presentation of the optical spacing aspects discussed in the book here: http://matthewmaslanka.blogspot.no/2009 ... acing.html

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