Tempo alterations font styles

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John Ruggero
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Re: Tempo alterations font styles

Post by John Ruggero »

A. Arnstein followed the rules: 1. All dynamics (and I think expression markings) below the staff 2. All tempo markings above the staff.

These are excellent rules for clarity and predictability in orchestral parts. However, in solo and chamber piano music, dynamics and expressions are often positioned anywhere to show differences between the hands and tempo modifications may be placed placed between the staves if there is nothing else going on there. However, to my knowledge general tempo markings are always placed above the top staff and in bold regular type in music for all instruments.

Arnstein placed general tempo markings in bold regular, and everything else in italics, since he followed the tradition of Breitkopf and Schirmer etc.

However, the style of placing tempo modifications, expressions and even dynamics in regular type is probably the most common style in the 18th and 19th centuries. Only later were these italicized in various combinations by various publishers.

I think the change may have something to do with the fact that in the autographs of many composers, most of the markings appear to be in italics, since they are handwritten, uncapitalized, and smallish. The main tempo marklngs, however, were capitalized and generally written larger, which might be interpreted as bolder. So the publishers might have started to use italic and regular bold fonts in way that seemed to imitate the autographs.

Chopin Ballade no 1, composer's MS:
Chopin Ballade no 1.jpg
Chopin Ballade no 1.jpg (111.21 KiB) Viewed 10756 times
Chopin Ballade no 1, Schirmer (edited Mikuli)
Chopin Ballade no 1 Schirmer.jpg
Chopin Ballade no 1 Schirmer.jpg (105.37 KiB) Viewed 10756 times
Last edited by John Ruggero on 24 Mar 2017, 20:16, edited 1 time in total.
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babul
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Re: Tempo alterations font styles

Post by babul »

Thanks, that's interesting stuff! Today while playing I noticed yet another method:

I'm an accompanist in music school, playing some clarinet piece. Tempo alterations (rall etc.) were in italics, but only above the piano staff, and not above the clarinet part. Schirmer says that 'accompanist will read solo part while playing' so they say it should be above instrument part, but maybe it's more readable when in between instrument staff and piano staff.. or I'm bad accompanist :P

Anyway, I think that above the staff looks very nice, especially in the example you provided. Sure, it might've been between LH and RH, but then it's almost always better to have hands closer (so you can read more easily).. even if nothing is going on, placing tempo alterations in between will increase the spacing very often, I feel.

For my own use I tried this method and I like it so far! http://i.imgur.com/tsz6NBM.png - here's an small example.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Tempo alterations font styles

Post by John Ruggero »

Schirmer has logic on its side, but traditionally, it is done as you have it in your example, the idea being that the pianist should be reading all three staves while playing. As the number of instruments increase in the ensemble, there is more tendency to place multiple tempo markings as in modern orchestral scores, one above the winds and another above the strings. So in a piano quintet, there might be tempo markings above Vln 1 and also above the piano.

I agree with you about the placement of the poco ritenuto, and evidently so does Chopin. There is too much going on between the staves as it is. But there are cases where it actually helps the spacing between the systems if some of the tempo changes are between the staves.
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Knut
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Re: Tempo alterations font styles

Post by Knut »

Here's the Durand style for tempo markings and modifications, which I follow unless I get other instructions:
Skjermbilde 2017-03-24 kl. 23.48.26.png
Skjermbilde 2017-03-24 kl. 23.48.26.png (364.49 KiB) Viewed 10744 times
babul
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Re: Tempo alterations font styles

Post by babul »

Oh yea, I'm aware that if there's more than one instrument staff above the piano, there should be restatement, just like the Durand example (though every tempo fluctuation there seems to be put in roman font). Thanks for your insight guys, I think I'll stick to single statement above above, since I'll engrave almost always just a single staff above the piano.

I guess it depends on the complexity of the score, maybe without dashed lines and big roman font it wouldn't be very readable in this example of Berg:

Image

But as long as it's 'classical', I guess it's fine.
Knut
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Re: Tempo alterations font styles

Post by Knut »

I should have used an example with solo instrument and Piano, but one of the points I was trying to make was that Durand (and myself) always restates the tempo markings regardless of the number of instruments.

Also, keep in mind that in chamber/piano scores, solo instruments are usually printed at a reduced size (contrary to your Berg example), which is probably why Durand follows this particular practice with Tempo indications.
babul
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Re: Tempo alterations font styles

Post by babul »

It's fine having extra marking if space allows it. Also the marking itself is smaller due to cue sized instrument part; to be clear, I was talking about having normal sized (12 point font, as you can see in my example in the second previous post) above the cued instrument part, so it's readable (while expression markings applying only to the instrument part shall be in smaller size; so anything that is above the instrument part will be 12 pt size, since it will be only tempo indications/alterations).

It doesn't matter that much I guess, I saw some Peters scores doing many different things depending on the piece (or editor rather). It's interesting looking at different scores and seeing many solutions and practice shall tell if my approach will prevail of I'll go with something else. Even if above instrument staff markings are not as apparent as those hugging piano staff, maybe that's a nice thing since player will be kind of forced to look slightly above and study solo part at the same time; so, a sight-reading exercise?

I'm just a beginner doing it for myself after all (seriously, some scores I have to play from are sometimes completely atrocious, or even hand-written). But, seeing as there are many approaches, I'd wager that it's rather matter of preference than of it being right/wrong.

P. S.

I discovered G. Schirmer manual of style on these forums.. really good stuff!
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OCTO
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Re: Tempo alterations font styles

Post by OCTO »

I find this Berg example a bit confusing, but yet it is perfectly readable. Interesting.
babul wrote: 25 Mar 2017, 02:15 I'd wager that it's rather matter of preference than of it being right/wrong.
It can be wrong if you have different approaches in one publication.
Schonbergian wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 23:36 Roman: IM Fell Great Primer, 14pt
You really want to simulate the old punching? ;)
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John Ruggero
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Re: Tempo alterations font styles

Post by John Ruggero »

FWIW, the clarinet staff is at 100% in the Berg because there is no clarinet part. The clarinet plays from score.
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Schonbergian
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Re: Tempo alterations font styles

Post by Schonbergian »

OCTO wrote: 25 Mar 2017, 06:02
Schonbergian wrote: 23 Mar 2017, 23:36 Roman: IM Fell Great Primer, 14pt
You really want to simulate the old punching? ;)
Of course! The old style with heavy typefaces and larger noteheads (IMO) reads better and looks awesome. Modern music/text fonts are for wimps - embrace the punching and ink!
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