Algorithms of accidental spacings

Discuss the rules of notation, standard notation practices, efficient notation practices and graphic design.
User avatar
Fred G. Unn
Posts: 435
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 13:24
Location: NYCish

Re: Algorithms of accidental spacings

Post by Fred G. Unn »

erelievonen wrote:The accidentals in the key signature are by far better spaced by Leduc and by Finale Default. I see no reason why accidentals in a key signature need to be so widely spaced as in the other examples. Specially when the keysignature has 6 or 7 accidentals, it takes unnecessarily much horizontal space (and thus unnecessarily much attention).
LOL! It's funny you mention that, because I had a similar thought after I posted the comparison sample. I knocked 1 EVPU off of the key signature accidental spacing setting in my default file yesterday afternoon to tighten it up a bit in the future.
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1742
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Algorithms of accidental spacings

Post by OCTO »

Interesting, I have made a little test with accidentals. Here Henle's Geminiani Violin Sonata.
I have tested :s and found very different results.
Zooming is at 3000, so it is not so clear.

Here is distance 78:
Distance 78
Distance 78
Screen shot 2015-10-21 at 9.09.53 AM.png (39.48 KiB) Viewed 10206 times
Here is distance much closer, 52:
Distance 52
Distance 52
Screen shot 2015-10-21 at 9.11.07 AM.png (37.21 KiB) Viewed 10206 times
Far more distance, 87:
Distance 87
Distance 87
Screen shot 2015-10-21 at 9.12.08 AM.png (48.06 KiB) Viewed 10206 times
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 27.3 • Sibelius 2023.5• MuseScore 4+ • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 11+ • Digital Performer 10+ /// MacOS Monterey (secondary in use systems: Fedora 35, Windows 10)
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1742
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Algorithms of accidental spacings

Post by OCTO »

Another example is Scriabin Sonata 5, by Peters.
Here zoom at 1000%.

The first measures, symbol :n

Here is distance 49:
Screen shot 2015-10-21 at 9.35.11 AM.png
Screen shot 2015-10-21 at 9.35.11 AM.png (27.96 KiB) Viewed 10205 times
Here is distance 42:
Screen shot 2015-10-21 at 9.35.31 AM.png
Screen shot 2015-10-21 at 9.35.31 AM.png (30.74 KiB) Viewed 10205 times
Here is distance 20 (50% less than the first note, in crowded :2 )
Screen shot 2015-10-21 at 9.37.43 AM.png
Screen shot 2015-10-21 at 9.37.43 AM.png (29.05 KiB) Viewed 10205 times
Last edited by OCTO on 21 Mar 2018, 11:43, edited 1 time in total.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 27.3 • Sibelius 2023.5• MuseScore 4+ • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 11+ • Digital Performer 10+ /// MacOS Monterey (secondary in use systems: Fedora 35, Windows 10)
Peter West
Posts: 129
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:26
Location: Cornwall, England
Contact:

Re: Algorithms of accidental spacings

Post by Peter West »

I agree that Finale's default line settings are way too thin, especially for staff sizes less than 5mm. They are easily changed though.
The also have staff carline and stems set to the same thickness which is awful. Again easily changed.
Finale 2008/9/10/11/12/14, Sibelius 6/7.5, In Design CC 2015, Illustrator CS4
erelievonen
Posts: 96
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 16:12
Contact:

Re: Algorithms of accidental spacings

Post by erelievonen »

It makes sense that in hand-engraved music the distances between object vary somewhat. It also makes sense that, in good engraving, the distances are varied according to the overall horizontal density of music on that particular system.
It is a pity that notation software (that I know) are unable to do this automatically. When I have had to squeeze a certain number of measures on one system, and it is more than what Finale is able to do properly by itself, one of the ways has been to manually shift all accidentals closer to their noteheads. On a tightly spaced page it looks entirely fine. But if that was made the default distance, on a loosely spaced page the accidentals would look too close to the noteheads.
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1742
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Algorithms of accidental spacings

Post by OCTO »

erelievonen wrote:It is a pity that notation software (that I know) are unable to do this automatically.
Exactly so.
Accidentals should be implemented in music spacing, equally to grace notes and ledger lines.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 27.3 • Sibelius 2023.5• MuseScore 4+ • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 11+ • Digital Performer 10+ /// MacOS Monterey (secondary in use systems: Fedora 35, Windows 10)
erelievonen
Posts: 96
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 16:12
Contact:

Re: Algorithms of accidental spacings

Post by erelievonen »

Peter West wrote:I agree that Finale's default line settings are way too thin, especially for staff sizes less than 5mm. They are easily changed though.
The also have staff carline and stems set to the same thickness which is awful. Again easily changed.
Yes, we who know about it, know that it can be easily changed. (The same changed default thickness went for staff lines, stems, barlines, ledger lines, word extensions, enclosures, repeat barlines, tuplet brackets, smart lines and hairpins, at least.)

But guess how many times in recent years, as a performer, I have received new scores from composers with those thin default staff lines?
Good default settings in a notation program have a function to serve: to protect performing musicians from the worst mistakes of ignorant users.
Vaughan
Posts: 53
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 12:37

Re: Algorithms of accidental spacings

Post by Vaughan »

I've complained about the Finale defaults to MM on a number of occasions. There really is no excuse for a flagship notation program to provide users with default templates which are technically not well-thought-out at best and, at worst, not at all according to accepted notation standards.

The idea of accidental spacing (plus a number of other elements) as being affected by music spacing is an excellent point, although I can imagine its being a very difficult feature to implement automatically. I don't believe that even Daniel Spreadbury has addressed dynamic spacing of accidentals.

Sibelius does a better job than Finale of spacing for ledger lines and grace notes simply because they are treated by Sibelius as unique elements requiring separate treatment. As several people here have said, better results are often achieved in Finale by turning off spacing for ledger lines, and spacing for grace notes usually requires extensive manual tweaking. I usually make several spacing-passes through a document, setting different values for grace note spacing (in Music Spacing, not in Grace Notes) on the different passes, especially for single as opposed to multiple grace notes, or slashed vs. non-slashed grace notes. Sib also has a separate setting for distance between last grace note and main note, whereas Fin only has one setting for both. It's sad that after all these years, Finale still hasn't been able to get this right. I believe it's at least partly because the Minimum Distance Between Items setting in Music Spacing applies to everything, including grace notes and ledger lines. A setting which would work well for the latter items would cause Finale to place other elements, like noteheads, too close together.
dspreadbury
Posts: 32
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 10:57

Re: Algorithms of accidental spacings

Post by dspreadbury »

This is an interesting topic, and something that we have been spending a lot of time on in our application: not only accidental stacking rules (which I have discussed at length on my blog at http://blog.steinberg.net/2014/03/devel ... -part-six/), but also kerning of accidental stacks, and the basic distances both to the left and to the right of accidentals.

For what it's worth, the attachment shows how the Lacour bars that Fred posted look in our application at the moment.

(The very first beam slope is a bit steep: this is because we are currently trying to prevent the innermost beam line from ending too close to the top or bottom stave line, so as a result, it snaps the right-hand end up a bit, but I think in this case it should also snap the left-hand end up a bit. We have more work to do on our default beam slopes!)

The kinds of controls you have in our application for accidentals are as follows:

* Distance between rightmost accidental and note; separate controls for flats, sharps, naturals, and then a fallback value for other accidental types
* Distance between successive columns of accidentals; separate controls for columns that can kern with each other (e.g. where a column can tuck in closer to the column to its right because of the shapes of the individual accidentals), and for columns that cannot kern (where the shapes prevent it), plus an extra control for the amount of *additional* space to add in the case of successive columns with very strong vertical lines (e.g. two columns of naturals next to each other, or naturals with flats to their right).
* The amount by which successive columns can overlap in the event that kerning is possible.
* Distance between the leftmost accidental and the preceding note/chord.

The application also automatically shortens the left-hand end of ledger lines so that accidentals on notes with ledger lines do not need to be pushed away from the note by the width of the ledger line. Ledger line length can also be set independently for both the left- and right-hand sides of individual notes, if needed. (The application also automatically shortens "inner" ledger lines on runs of very short notes, 32nds or shorter, if memory serves.)

It is also possible to swap the order of accidentals between different columns, if needed, and of course to adjust the horizontal position of each accidental independently.
Attachments
lacour-01.png
lacour-01.png (15.46 KiB) Viewed 10189 times
User avatar
Fred G. Unn
Posts: 435
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 13:24
Location: NYCish

Re: Algorithms of accidental spacings

Post by Fred G. Unn »

dspreadbury wrote: The application also automatically shortens the left-hand end of ledger lines so that accidentals on notes with ledger lines do not need to be pushed away from the note by the width of the ledger line.
Ok, that's pretty cool, and is definitely evident on all the accidentals in the third bar.
Post Reply