Clutter?

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John Ruggero
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Clutter?

Post by John Ruggero »

Here are some items that I think clutter up scores and might be done away with for the good of all:

1. A simple 8---- over the notes indicates an octave higher. A simple 8--- under the notes indicates an octave lower. And the same for 15---
Why 8va, 8vb, 8bv, 8va bassa and all the rest?

2. Parentheses around (8)--- when the marking extends over to other systems. I've never seen this in the best editions, past and present, and for good reason. I think I recall A. Arnstein using them in the 1970's and Finale doesn't provide an option not to with the Octave Tool. (Yes, there is workaround.) They are redundant. An octave higher is an octave higher. Who needs the parentheses?

3. "loco" after an 8--- This goes back to the day when very high or low notes were comparatively rare, the way of expressing it was not yet standardized: the dashed lines varied considerably, a closing vertical was not used, hand written octave signs were sometimes not clearly written, so composers and editors felt that they had to do something special to show the ending. With precise engraving, modern editions of older music do away with these, fortunately. But the loco continues to be used for special cases, as we read in E. Gould. But I see no reason for the loco in any of the examples she gives. There may be occasions where it could be helpful, but nothing occurs to me.

4. I have never encountered a grace note or small group that was not to be played legato and connected to the main note. Why did slurs come into use for grace notes around the middle of the 19th century? (I think know.) You won't find them in the autographs and editions of composers before that time, because it was felt to be obvious. It is. And on the infinitely rare occasion that someone wants detached grace notes, it is easily indicated. (By "grace notes", I am, of course, referring only to free notes that are directly associated with a following large note.)

5. V.S. at the end of every page of a part. (This was a Arnstein pet peeve and may now be much rarer than in hand copying days.) It suggests that insufficient care was taken with page turns and the engraver thinks that the V. S. makes everything OK. It doesn't. Or it's a written tic. V.S. should only be used on the rarest occasions, because it represents desperation on the part of the engraver and is nothing to be proud of.

The following have appeared previously but are included for completeness:

6. 8's and such in combination with clefs. Everyone knows the standard transpositions, and in case of ambiguity, a simple footnote suffices.
7. Periods after titles, instruments, composers, markings that are not abbreviations, repeat ending numbers, etc. Why?
8. Ped. in conjunction with brackets. Ped. * or brackets, but not both. Both systems have strengths but their weaknesses are emphasized when they are combined.
Last edited by John Ruggero on 08 Feb 2017, 23:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Fred G. Unn
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Re: Clutter?

Post by Fred G. Unn »

1. In the real world I've seen this occasionally, especially in hand copied parts. I suppose because the instruction is actually an abbreviation of ottava, ottava bassa, quindicesima, etc. that it remains. Gould seems to think it's optional as well.

2. Yeah, this seems pretty unnecessary to me too.

3. Is this still common? I don't recall seeing this unless something is unclear.

4. Agree

5. I only use it on odd pages from 3 onward that contain 8 systems or less. (Maybe 6 or 7 or less on pg 1.) My standard single staff part layout usually contains 10 systems, and if there is 9 I can tweak the spacing to simply spread them out a bit. If I have to use 8 or less to allow for a page turn I'll use "V.S." just so the performer doesn't see the shortened layout and think that's the end of the piece. Of course that sort of gets away from the original meaning of it, but I don't know a better way to notate "Hey, I shortened the number of systems on this page so you can have a page turn. Now turn the page and keep playing!"

6. Eh, they seem pretty standard now. They don't really bug me.

7 & 8. Agree
Knut
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Re: Clutter?

Post by Knut »

I pretty much agree with all of these, but keep in mind that in the real world different standards and conventions are upheld in different genres. While clutter is sometimes an issue with these specific phenomena, they don't bother me nearly as much as blatant erroneous terminology (like 8vb and 8vb in popular music).

Also, slurs on grace notes do clarify semantics, however superfluously. And since I like them from an asthetical perspective, I usually keep them in.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Clutter?

Post by John Ruggero »

And I thought that this would be controversial!

Thanks Fred and Knut. I am glad to hear that I am not the only one.

Fred, to clarify what you said, do you mean that in your experience, 8--- is the standard now, but that you have seen the other forms in handwritten parts? Judging from a default file, Finale thinks that the others are the standard ones, not the simple 8---. So I would imagine that it is being using a lot in engraved parts as well.

I meant that loco is now used only in special circumstances, but I don't think there really are any.

I need to correct my comment about the V.S. I meant on every turn page, not every page. And we would see this in the old days on full pages, not partial ones.. But I hope for the sake of the present state of music that what you are doing is needless. Arnstein often used pages of fewer than 8 staves to get good turns and no precautions were never taken or needed. The thin-thick double bar shows the end of the piece, and stopping before that visual cue seems inconceivable to me.

Knut, I loved your comment about the slurs, especially from the linguistic point of view. Yes that is the only thing that might recommend the slur. But the slur can actually work against semantics, as when a two-note "trill" acts as a connector between two large notes. In this case, the slur should include all four notes, but this never occurs and players are tempted to make an unwanted break before the first small note just because of the slur over just three notes.
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OCTO
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Re: Clutter?

Post by OCTO »

Here is one of these clutters that actually is perfectly clear to perform.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22
Not sure why, but sometimes dense pages make more sense than loose. Maybe I cannot call it clutter!
John Ruggero wrote: 08 Feb 2017, 18:33 2. Parentheses around (8)--- when the marking extends over to other systems. I've never seen this in the best editions, past and present, and for good reason. I think I recall A. Arnstein using them in the 1970's and Finale doesn't provide an option not to with the Octave Tool. (Yes, there is workaround.) They are redundant. An octave higher is an octave higher. Who needs the parentheses?
A very great statement. This one I will accpet imidiately!
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John Ruggero
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Re: Clutter?

Post by John Ruggero »

That page is not clutter, OCTO. It is genius! The only clutter I see on that amazing page are the slurs for the grace notes and the parentheses around the metronome markings. I thought about having the latter in the list, but it is so rare now. All the other markings seem meaningful, even if one doesn't know what some of them mean without a key, which I hope is provided.

Thank you for your compliment, OCTO.! You might put in a good word for this feature request over at MM. They definitely seem more responsive and seem to be feeling the pressure of Dorico to improve. Good things may come.
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Fred G. Unn
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Re: Clutter?

Post by Fred G. Unn »

John Ruggero wrote: 09 Feb 2017, 00:06 Fred, to clarify what you said, do you mean that in your experience, 8--- is the standard now, but that you have seen the other forms in handwritten parts?
Nope, I've seen 8--- a few times in handwritten parts but definitely not standard. I'm ok either way with this one I think. As 8va or 8ba (not 8vb) is really an abbreviation, it seems ok to me. I suppose it is possible to conceive of a situation where it wouldn't be clear if the 8---- referred to an octave up or down but I can't recall one offhand.
John Ruggero wrote: 09 Feb 2017, 00:06 I need to correct my comment about the V.S. I meant on every turn page, not every page. And we would see this in the old days on full pages, not partial ones.. But I hope for the sake of the present state of music that what you are doing is needless. Arnstein often used pages of fewer than 8 staves to get good turns and no precautions were never taken or needed. The thin-thick double bar shows the end of the piece, and stopping before that visual cue seems inconceivable to me.
Most of what I do is new music that is under-rehearsed (or not rehearsed), and stopping before thin-thick double bar happens more than you'd suspect. Players see a half page ending with a multimeasure rest and just assume they are done. If someone misses an entrance at a recording date of a full orchestra at union scale, then the 5 minutes to re-record that section might mathematically be more expensive than my entire copying bill for the piece. It's just better to add the V.S. and make it as clear as possible IMO. I would never use a V.S. on turn pages that are full though, but to be safe use it on all odd pages 8 or less.

Slightly related, but I usually use "This page left blank for page turn" on the very rare case where I just can't find a page turn on an odd page.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Clutter?

Post by John Ruggero »

Fred, I have looked through many standard piano and orchestral scores from the best publishers from Brahms to Ligeti, and I can't find an 8va anywhere. They are all 8----. Could this be a Pop vs Classical thing?

Given the situation you describe, your V.S.'s make a lot of sense. But redundant V.S.'s in opera and orchestra parts, which was A.'s pet peeve, don't.

A. did the same, a big underlined "Blank Page" in the middle of the page so the player wouldn't fear a page omission.
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Schonbergian
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Re: Clutter?

Post by Schonbergian »

As one of those who seems to be targeted by your "period comment", I nonetheless agree that it's pointless. However, as long as the clutter remains outside of the "general reading area", it's aethestic preference rather than readability that determines that choice.

In regards to many of your other comments (such as VS or the pedaling), I wholeheartedly agree that it clutters up the main reading area and should be opposed on the grounds of readability.
Knut
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Re: Clutter?

Post by Knut »

John Ruggero wrote: 09 Feb 2017, 00:06 Knut, I loved your comment about the slurs, especially from the linguistic point of view. Yes that is the only thing that might recommend the slur. But the slur can actually work against semantics, as when a two-note "trill" acts as a connector between two large notes. In this case, the slur should include all four notes, but this never occurs and players are tempted to make an unwanted break before the first small note just because of the slur over just three notes.
Thank you! Language is fun!

I'm not entirely able to picture your example, but this sounds like a case where you could have your cake and eat it too; i.e., slur all four notes as well as the grace notes into the following main note. It's rarely necessary, but it has been done.
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