Tied chords

Discuss the rules of notation, standard notation practices, efficient notation practices and graphic design.
benwiggy
Posts: 147
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 19:42

Tied chords

Post by benwiggy » 30 Apr 2017, 11:45

Two questions here:

1. Is it possible to improve the appearance of four ties on a chord so that they don't look like two sets of train tracks?

2. How to improve the clashing of the pedal notes?
Screen Shot 7.png
Screen Shot 7.png (25.83 KiB) Viewed 1199 times

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1177
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Tied chords

Post by John Ruggero » 30 Apr 2017, 12:54

I've never cared for the way Finale handles this situation either. Would you prefer this with the tie ends going all the way to the note heads. which seems to be standard in hand engraving?
ties.jpg
ties.jpg (41.53 KiB) Viewed 1192 times
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

benwiggy
Posts: 147
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 19:42

Re: Tied chords

Post by benwiggy » 30 Apr 2017, 13:31

That's nicer. I think it works better if the ties are more uniform.

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1177
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Tied chords

Post by John Ruggero » 30 Apr 2017, 16:31

I agree; it does look better and more like what one has seen in engraving.

Benwiggy, this has always bothered me, yet I never checked it out and just accepted Finale's default until you asked the question. That's why I love this forum. It prods one to ask and answer the questions that improve one's work. So I will start doing this in the future with ties applied to dotted notes.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

benwiggy
Posts: 147
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 19:42

Re: Tied chords

Post by benwiggy » 30 Apr 2017, 18:38

As an exercise, I'm re-setting a much beloved Anglican classic from the Novello Octavo days, and trying to match the original layout while improving the quality of the notation. (So my copies could be used alongside the original in rehearsal, but would be a considerable improvement on a scan/photocopy.)
The old moveable type was hideous in many ways, but at the same time, it packs in an awful lot of notes onto a small page in a surprisingly readable package.
The organ part is more complex than I usually deal with, and there's a lot of fiddling in Finale which, while possible, is tedious, in order to sort out stem directions for 3 layers, cross-staff notes, and conflicting unisons/seconds. I might run it through Dorico and see what it makes of it.

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1177
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Tied chords

Post by John Ruggero » 01 May 2017, 03:12

It would be an interesting experiment just to see what it does with those ties. Adjusting them is pretty tedious. But your result will certainly be a great improvement over the original, no matter what software you use!
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

benwiggy
Posts: 147
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 19:42

Re: Tied chords

Post by benwiggy » 02 May 2017, 08:04

Here's how Dorico handles it.
Screen Shot 3.png
Screen Shot 3.png (62.61 KiB) Viewed 1132 times

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 965
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Tied chords

Post by OCTO » 02 May 2017, 08:12

What about moving the lower voice's E-note after the dot, consequently expanding the space of other quarter-notes?

Also, what about having all stems for the Layer2 of the same length?

Just an idea.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25 • Sibelius 8 • MuseScore 2 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 9 • Digital Performer 9 /// OS X El Capitan, (side system: Debian 9, Windows 7)

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 965
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Tied chords

Post by OCTO » 02 May 2017, 08:13

Oh, I see, the same time you replied I wrote this.

Dorico: what about moving the tie above the E note, thus having a clearer connection?
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25 • Sibelius 8 • MuseScore 2 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 9 • Digital Performer 9 /// OS X El Capitan, (side system: Debian 9, Windows 7)

benwiggy
Posts: 147
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 19:42

Re: Tied chords

Post by benwiggy » 02 May 2017, 09:38

And here's the Novello original....
Screen Shot 4.png
Screen Shot 4.png (73.8 KiB) Viewed 1128 times
Octo: I think stems are supposed to get shorter in this sort of context.

I think the original "switched positions" is preferable to Dorico's handling: there's confusion about which notehead is tied. Ties crossing stems is unavoidable, I think. However, what I like about Dorico's engraving is that the ties seem 'parallel' to one another, whereas Finale has them varying their distance between one another, which I don't like.

What's really clear from importing into Dorico, is that it handles multi-voices per staff much better. It makes so many adjustments, moving notes off the beat position to make voicing clear. You might disagree with the choices, but there's much less fiddling. (However, trying to instruct Dorico to do things like 3 systems per page requires lots of fiddling, where in Finale, it would be easy.)

Post Reply