Tied chords

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David Ward
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Re: Tied chords

Post by David Ward » 02 May 2017, 14:33

The pedal line seems to need the feet to get well separated! Is this usual? I'm not knowledgeable about the organ.

EDIT: Checking the literature it seems to be perfectly normal.
Last edited by David Ward on 02 May 2017, 14:55, edited 1 time in total.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Tied chords

Post by John Ruggero » 02 May 2017, 14:42

Thanks, benwiggy. That is very interesting. I find the Dorico result disappointing despite the fact that the starting default is better than Finale. It doesn't bring the slurs through the dots to the note heads, the general and ending thickness and taper of the ties are not to my taste, and it puts the pedal note E on the wrong side of the chord, as you noted. So I would still have to fix all the same things. Are they as easily fixed in Dorico as in Finale?

Here is an example of such slurs from a current Wiener Urtext Edition of Chopin's Scherzo no. 1 Note that the fine taper of the slurs makes it possible to bring them to the note heads:
WU ties.jpg
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MJCube
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Re: Tied chords

Post by MJCube » 02 May 2017, 14:46

I agree about preferring that ties point to the noteheads as much as practicable.

I believe Dorico has a command to simply exchange the positions of selected notes on the same beat, left/right. That would apply in this organ excerpt with the E unison on the downbeat.

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Fred G. Unn
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Re: Tied chords

Post by Fred G. Unn » 02 May 2017, 17:33

OCTO wrote:
02 May 2017, 08:12
Also, what about having all stems for the Layer2 of the same length?
Sorry for the minor thread derailment, but that reminds me of a tip for the Finale users since Finale doesn't scale shortened stems appropriately. In Finale you can only select the regular (3.5 spaces) length and then a shortened length. If you select 2.5 spaces for the shortened length Finale really should gradually scale it like Dorico and Sibelius both do, but it does not, so you can encounter some weird stem lengths like the first bar below. Fortunately, the Patterson Beams plug in will fix the stem length even though there aren't any beams, so you don't have to bother with any manual fixes. Here's an example.

Image

In the first two posts of this thread both benwiggy and John's downstemmed Bs look slightly too short to me, but Patterson Beams could automatically adjust that if you wanted even though there is no beaming, as long as you have Beautify Stems selected (it is by default).

benwiggy
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Re: Tied chords

Post by benwiggy » 02 May 2017, 18:11

Fred G. Unn wrote:
02 May 2017, 17:33
In the first two posts of this thread both benwiggy and John's downstemmed Bs look slightly too short to me
I reduced the length of short stems in Doc Opts for this document: simply because the score is SO tight on the page that I need every last millimetre!

I have run Patterson Beams, but that's a great tip.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Tied chords

Post by John Ruggero » 02 May 2017, 22:20

Thanks, Fred. I agree completely about the stems. Usually, I run Patterson Beams, but not for examples for Notat.io etc.; but I should.
Last edited by John Ruggero on 02 May 2017, 22:32, edited 1 time in total.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Tied chords

Post by John Ruggero » 02 May 2017, 22:28

Thanks, MJCube. How easily would Dorico handle adjusting the tie position so they do go to the noteheads? I have seen settings to make the slur shapes more like Finale at the Dorico forum, which is encouraging.
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Knut
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Re: Tied chords

Post by Knut » 03 May 2017, 05:56

John Ruggero wrote:
02 May 2017, 22:28
How easily would Dorico handle adjusting the tie position so they do go to the noteheads? I have seen settings to make the slur shapes more like Finale at the Dorico forum, which is encouraging.
This can be done by altering the default settings, so it's easy enough to change.

Regarding the Finale-esque slur shape settings: Sure, it's possible to make the ends thinner, but the tapering on the Dorico slurs a quite different (less natural) than Finale's, and there's no way around that, so you won't be able to replicate FInale's slur shapes in Dorico.

Here's Ben's example in dorico with altered tie settings and voice column. As you can see, Dorico's ties have a more abrupt tapering than Finale's.
Skjermbilde 2017-05-03 kl. 10.19.23.png

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John Ruggero
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Re: Tied chords

Post by John Ruggero » 03 May 2017, 15:39

Knut wrote:
03 May 2017, 05:56
Regarding the Finale-esque slur shape settings: Sure, it's possible to make the ends thinner, but the tapering on the Dorico slurs a quite different (less natural) than Finale's, and there's no way around that, so you won't be able to replicate FInale's slur shapes in Dorico.
Thanks, Knut. As nice as your version is, those ties would make Dorico unusable for me. They lack the delicacy that one sees in the best engraving. But one would think that control over the taper is something that could be added to Dorico. I hope that they will.

I notice that Dorico doesn't handle the lowest tie in the first measure well. Would adjusting the tie to run to the dotted half-note be difficult? I am saving my Dorico demo for when the program is more mature, so I don't know if adjusting handles appear on ties as with Finale.
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Knut
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Re: Tied chords

Post by Knut » 03 May 2017, 19:26

John Ruggero wrote:
03 May 2017, 15:39
Knut wrote:
03 May 2017, 05:56
Regarding the Finale-esque slur shape settings: Sure, it's possible to make the ends thinner, but the tapering on the Dorico slurs a quite different (less natural) than Finale's, and there's no way around that, so you won't be able to replicate FInale's slur shapes in Dorico.
Thanks, Knut. As nice as your version is, those ties would make Dorico unusable for me. They lack the delicacy that one sees in the best engraving. But one would think that control over the taper is something that could be added to Dorico. I hope that they will.
I hope so too. I must say, though, that I find the ties in this particular example, with these particular settings pretty nice. The problem is that with such abrupt tapering it's impossible to make them look consistently nice regardless of length and angle (same goes for slurs, of course). Without more control over the taper, I find the Dorico ties/slurs less than ideal.
John Ruggero wrote: I notice that Dorico doesn't handle the lowest tie in the first measure well. Would adjusting the tie to run to the dotted half-note be difficult? I am saving my Dorico demo for when the program is more mature, so I don't know if adjusting handles appear on ties as with Finale.
Easy as pie. It can be done either by dragging the handle, by nudging it with the arrow keys, or even by entering a desired value in the properties panel.
Last edited by Knut on 04 May 2017, 19:41, edited 1 time in total.

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