Size of accidentals with grace notes?

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David Ward
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Size of accidentals with grace notes?

Post by David Ward » 24 May 2017, 20:24

If an accidental precedes a grace note, but also applies to normal notes that follow, should it be as much reduced in size as the grace notehead (as in the Finale default), or might it with advantage be somewhat larger?

An alternative might be to repeat the accidental as it applies to the normal note, but that might look a tad fussy and cluttered.

Knut
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Re: Size of accidentals with grace notes?

Post by Knut » 25 May 2017, 09:15

David Ward wrote:
24 May 2017, 20:24
If an accidental precedes a grace note, but also applies to normal notes that follow, should it be as much reduced in size as the grace notehead (as in the Finale default), or might it with advantage be somewhat larger?

An alternative might be to repeat the accidental as it applies to the normal note, but that might look a tad fussy and cluttered.
Accidentals on grace notes do carry though the measure by convention, but you may want to add a courtesy accidental on the first main note if it's a few beats away from the grace note. I would never change the size of the accidental, though, as that would screw up the visual balance.

That said, it's not like using normal sized accidentals on grace notes hasen't been done. See this thread with an example by Peters: viewtopic.php?t=129#p2134.

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David Ward
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Re: Size of accidentals with grace notes?

Post by David Ward » 25 May 2017, 10:59

Thanks - yes, I thought it had come up before.

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Re: Size of accidentals with grace notes?

Post by benwiggy » 25 May 2017, 16:00

Apropos of nothing, I was looking through the Maestro font characters, and there are "small" versions of all the accidentals. Even those with brackets.
The "main three" are used on trills, but I wonder what else they might have been envisaged for. Grace notes are just reduced %.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Size of accidentals with grace notes?

Post by John Ruggero » 26 May 2017, 10:46

All of these small accidentals, including double sharps and flats, are used to clarify the auxiliary tones of various ornaments such as turns as well as trills. They are also used over notes in critical editions when there doubt about the text.
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Re: Size of accidentals with grace notes?

Post by benwiggy » 26 May 2017, 15:41

It's just curious that having made them all in Maestro and Engraver, plus a bracketed set, Finale doesn't really acknowledge them. There's no "small accidental" character setting in Doc Opts, for instance; and you have to seek them out (rather than using the standard symbols, possibly at a reduction) for use in Smart Shapes.
John Ruggero wrote:
26 May 2017, 10:46
They are also used over notes in critical editions when there doubt about the text.
Don't get me started on all the different types of accidentals needed in critical editions! :)

One of my biggest complaints is the lack of square brackets on accidentals. I've had to create a font which has [#] in the place of #, so that I can just switch the font for a given note, to give square brackets.

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Re: Size of accidentals with grace notes?

Post by John Ruggero » 27 May 2017, 12:07

I think these items are a half-hearted attempt on MM's part. What is really needed is a complete set of parenthesized and bracketed articulations, expressions and accidentals and such that would constitute an "Editor's Library" that save one the task of creating them, which is often annoying given the primitive state of the various Designers. This would take their staff all of a day or two and create good will all around.
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Re: Size of accidentals with grace notes?

Post by David Ward » 27 May 2017, 13:00

John Ruggero wrote:
27 May 2017, 12:07
… …This would take their staff all of a day or two and create good will all around.
Is there some effective way to encourage someone significant from MM to take note of John's post?
Last edited by David Ward on 28 May 2017, 12:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Size of accidentals with grace notes?

Post by benwiggy » 28 May 2017, 09:25

John Ruggero wrote:
27 May 2017, 12:07
What is really needed is a complete set of parenthesized and bracketed articulations, expressions and accidentals and such that would constitute an "Editor's Library" that save one the task of creating them, which is often annoying given the primitive state of the various Designers.
I think the "SMuFL" approach is for there to be a collection of parentheses and brackets, which can be applied to any object by the software. That make more sense and is more flexible, though requires more effort.
MM are certainly involved in the move to SMuFL, and I would imagine that their efforts in font creation are all focused on that -- all 3000 glyphs of it!

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Re: Size of accidentals with grace notes?

Post by OCTO » 28 May 2017, 17:01

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