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tied quavers everywhere!
Posted: 19 Oct 2017, 16:20
by benwiggy
There seemed to be a vogue in mid-20th-century choral music (particularly) of adding tied quavers to the ends of every phrase, particularly on longer note values. I've seen it in the works of Vaughan-Williams, Howells, Carter and others.
I was wondering if someone here might know: was this a compositional fashion, or an editorial one?
Re: tied quavers everywhere!
Posted: 19 Oct 2017, 16:41
by David Ward
Guessing, no more, it may have been compositional in order to prevent stopping exactly at the beat, especially if the phrase ended with a consonant. Probably related to certain habits in the English amateur choral tradition which somebody found annoying.
However, it may be something else entirely. Can you up-load a couple of examples?
Re: tied quavers everywhere!
Posted: 19 Oct 2017, 16:54
by benwiggy
Here's some not particularly attractive examples:
- quaver001.jpg (131.09 KiB) Viewed 13099 times
- quaver002.jpg (129.64 KiB) Viewed 13099 times
Re: tied quavers everywhere!
Posted: 19 Oct 2017, 20:24
by Knut
David Ward wrote: ↑19 Oct 2017, 16:41
Guessing, no more, it may have been compositional in order to prevent stopping exactly at the beat, especially if the phrase ended with a consonant.
That is certainly part of it, but the notation isn't limited to choral music or a certain period.
Even I was taught to use the notation, and it's widely used to this day in all kinds of music, to prevent stopping a note on the beat, or indeed, even prevent jazz musicians from stopping a note early, which they will do by default. It's also used for the same reason in place of a dotted quarter note (quarter tied to an eight), as it is a clearer indication of the note length when it's followed by a rest.
Re: tied quavers everywhere!
Posted: 19 Oct 2017, 20:43
by benwiggy
So does it mean "make sure you hold the note to the beat", or does it mean "go beyond the beat"? (and if the latter, to what purpose?)
Many conductors tell choirs to ignore them; the alternative is often a precious over-emphasis -- particularly if it has a consonant.
Re: tied quavers everywhere!
Posted: 19 Oct 2017, 20:57
by Knut
benwiggy wrote: ↑19 Oct 2017, 20:43
So does it mean "make sure you hold the note full length", or does it mean "go beyond the beat"? (and if the latter, to what purpose?)
Many conductors tell choirs to ignore them; the alternative is often a precious over-emphasis -- particularly if it has a consonant.
It can mean both. It's context dependent, but most often it means go beyond the beat. It's especially useful when doing overlaps in different instruments, to ensure an inconspicuous transition. See virtually any orchestration by Ravel for examples of this particular usage.
Re: tied quavers everywhere!
Posted: 19 Oct 2017, 22:24
by Schonbergian
At least in early 20th century English music, the final consonant is "placed" on the quaver. I haven't often seen this when the word ends with a vowel.
Re: tied quavers everywhere!
Posted: 19 Oct 2017, 23:05
by Knut
benwiggy wrote: ↑19 Oct 2017, 16:54
Here's some not particularly attractive examples:
Ben, who's the publisher of the first example? Is it Ricordi? That dynamics font is pretty extraordinary. I remember discussing it on the Finale forum in the past, but I'm unable to track down the thread. Nor am I able to find a Recordi edition (if that is indeed the publisher) on IMSLP which feature that particular style of dynamics. I don't own any Ricordi scores myself, unfortunately.
I remember contemplating using those dynamics as a basis for an entire font, although, since they seem to be exclusive to one particular publisher, I'm unsure if anyone would dare to use them. Nevertheless, if anyone can provide screenshots of larger parts of the character set (f, s, z, etc, or indeed more extensive parts if is used for other text besides dynamics, I'd be very interested.
Re: tied quavers everywhere!
Posted: 19 Oct 2017, 23:44
by Schonbergian
Knut wrote: ↑19 Oct 2017, 23:05
benwiggy wrote: ↑19 Oct 2017, 16:54
Here's some not particularly attractive examples:
Ben, who's the publisher of the first example? Is it Ricordi? That dynamics font is pretty extraordinary. I remember discussing it on the Finale forum in the past, but I'm unable to track down the thread. Nor am I able to find a Recordi edition (if that is indeed the publisher) on IMSLP which feature that particular style of dynamics. I don't own any Ricordi scores myself, unfortunately.
I remember contemplating using those dynamics as a basis for an entire font, although, since they seem to be exclusive to one particular publisher, I'm unsure if anyone would dare to use them. Nevertheless, if anyone can provide screenshots of larger parts of the character set (f, s, z, etc, or indeed more extensive parts if is used for other text besides dynamics, I'd be very interested.
Looks like Novello to me.
Re: tied quavers everywhere!
Posted: 20 Oct 2017, 00:01
by Knut
Schonbergian wrote: ↑19 Oct 2017, 23:44
Knut wrote: ↑19 Oct 2017, 23:05
benwiggy wrote: ↑19 Oct 2017, 16:54
Here's some not particularly attractive examples:
Ben, who's the publisher of the first example? Is it Ricordi? That dynamics font is pretty extraordinary. I remember discussing it on the Finale forum in the past, but I'm unable to track down the thread. Nor am I able to find a Recordi edition (if that is indeed the publisher) on IMSLP which feature that particular style of dynamics. I don't own any Ricordi scores myself, unfortunately.
I remember contemplating using those dynamics as a basis for an entire font, although, since they seem to be exclusive to one particular publisher, I'm unsure if anyone would dare to use them. Nevertheless, if anyone can provide screenshots of larger parts of the character set (f, s, z, etc, or indeed more extensive parts if is used for other text besides dynamics, I'd be very interested.
Looks like Novello to me.
You're exactly right. Thanks!
Not to completely hijack Ben's thread, but has anyone here seen a font similar to that which Novello uses for dynamics and pedal markings?