Flat slurs

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OCTO
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Re: Flat slurs

Post by OCTO »

Den wrote:
11 Sep 2020, 17:11
John Ruggero wrote:
04 Nov 2015, 23:16
Peter and OCTO, I think that you are absolutely right. An independent middle point would allow flattening and be a big advance.

I still feel that the user should have the option of placing control points where needed so that any possible slur could be drawn:

Ravel Tombeau.jpg
yes , S-slurs in Igor
without much tweaking...only raw add all nested slurs, move and connect to each other, nothing special editing...about 15-20min.
ready for eps export to other dtp program
S-line slurs-Igor Engraver.jpg
I think that John pointed that this should be done with one slur only.
Using several linked slurs is not interesting here, consequently nothing particular is different in Igor either.
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Den
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Re: Flat slurs

Post by Den »

OCTO wrote:
12 Sep 2020, 19:57
I think that John pointed that this should be done with one slur only.
Using several linked slurs is not interesting here, consequently nothing particular is different in Igor either.
O.K. My bad mistake. I apologize!
Any way...Slurs and lines in Dorico is ok, have many possibilities, Dorico have multi point slurs, but ...
Slurs in Dorico have many wrong separate confuse logic. Not stay fixed on primary position (your!) and when you move notes after your job finished also slurs is moving on new position... wrong position (not where you put slurs and fixed). Also, in this case, when you move notes with Alt and left or right arrow , that change everything in measure (your original fixed notes is lost-completly!). Yes, you have back with Undo but...logic is confusing and loose your time every time when edit something like this and many other functions. What is all this worth so many scattered functions when it could all be more easily presented, ie. programming? Especially with lines or slurs ..
When you do anything in Dorico you have the feeling that everything is somehow fixed programming and does not allow you to have free editing and stay as you originally set anything. I can't even move the rest where I want, but where Dorico fits. But OK. Maybe it will work out by version 7...maybe.
More functions does not mean better, but more optimized and simplified functions mean simpler and better. When you move slurs in Write mode, that is very slow. When you go in Engrave slurs edit is faster and smoother. Why is this separate modes, why is not in only ONE mode on ONE page??? That is bad idea to separate all modes and separate all functions to many places in program. Go to Write and click to Engrave, and go to Write, and go to Engrave...and go to Write, click to Engrave, etc.etc. all time :( Wonderful! And so we can click all day and everything could be much simpler, even with slurs. Fortunately, many have Illustrator or similar external tools for right corrections :-)

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JoshNichols
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Re: Flat slurs

Post by JoshNichols »

Flat slurs are available in Dorico as a default and custom item. But, the Ravel example is not easy to capture in Dorico ATM.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Flat slurs

Post by John Ruggero »

Glad you have become a member, JoshNichols.

It would be interesting to hear about your issues doing the Ravel slur in Dorico, and you might communicate that at the Dorico site if you haven't already. I remember someone posting a wild and amusing illustration of what Dorico can do in this area a while ago, and it seemed even more difficult.
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JoshNichols
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Re: Flat slurs

Post by JoshNichols »

John Ruggero wrote:
13 Feb 2021, 20:33
Glad you have become a member, JoshNichols.

It would be interesting to hear about your issues doing the Ravel slur in Dorico, and you might communicate that at the Dorico site if you haven't already. I remember someone posting a wild and amusing illustration of what Dorico can do in this area a while ago, and it seemed even more difficult.
I appreciate your encouragement, and will try to re-engrave the Ravel and see what problems arise.
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JoshNichols
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Re: Flat slurs

Post by JoshNichols »

So, here's my attempt:

I first went through note input. I thought that maybe using a compound "s" curve slur might do the trick.
initial stage.PNG
initial stage.PNG (77.08 KiB) Viewed 613 times
But, Dorico handles these "s" curves as like two interlinked beziers, leading to problems where I can't adjust one side of the curve without affecting the other. This is likely to mask the center point of the s, where the angle and approach have to be the same on both sides.
dorico logic.PNG
dorico logic.PNG (91.92 KiB) Viewed 613 times
This meant that it's impossible to get these long enough, bank hard enough at the top of a curve, and line up with another.

So, I regrouped and instead decided to take the painful route of connecting lots of independent slurs.
round two.PNG
round two.PNG (87.01 KiB) Viewed 613 times
The vertical slurs were "s" style, so that they could oppose at each ends in the compound slur.

Then, I got this, after about 35 minutes of tweaking:
Tombeau Nightmare.png
Tombeau Nightmare.png (87.66 KiB) Viewed 613 times
What do you think? I felt like I was in a graphic editor: So tedious.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Flat slurs

Post by John Ruggero »

Yours is similar to what I get in Finale using the same method. One unanticipated problem was the clefs, which have to get out of the way of the slur but are not moveable in Finale since they are not mid-measure. So I had to add them in as expressions. Perhaps the same is true in Dorico:
Ravel Example.jpeg
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JoshNichols
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Re: Flat slurs

Post by JoshNichols »

John Ruggero wrote:
16 Feb 2021, 16:30
Yours is similar to what I get in Finale using the same method. One unanticipated problem was the clefs, which have to get out of the way of the slur but are not moveable in Finale since they are not mid-measure. So I had to add them in as expressions. Perhaps the same is true in Dorico:

Ravel Example.jpeg
Actually you can move clefs independent of any object or position. For me, I click the barline and click the sub item and move it over, as shown below.
moving around clefs in dorc.PNG
moving around clefs in dorc.PNG (46.09 KiB) Viewed 562 times
The red bubble means it has been modified. If I click delete on that button it deletes the spacing changes I've made to that item, but not the item itself.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Flat slurs

Post by John Ruggero »

That's much better in Dorico. There are many things I prefer in Dorico, if only it could do all the things I need.

The small clef looks too small to me (the curl at the bottom is touching a staff line). Is that the Dorico default size and can it be changed? And can it be moved vertically? There are rare cases when secondary clefs have to do that.
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JoshNichols
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Re: Flat slurs

Post by JoshNichols »

John Ruggero wrote:
17 Feb 2021, 13:09
That's much better in Dorico. There are many things I prefer in Dorico, if only it could do all the things I need.

The small clef looks too small to me (the curl at the bottom is touching a staff line). Is that the Dorico default size and can it be changed? And can it be moved vertically? There are rare cases when secondary clefs have to do that.
You can adjust the size of any of the cautionary clefs or clef changes in the Music Symbols dialogue.
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