Fingerings

Discuss the rules of notation, standard notation practices, efficient notation practices and graphic design.
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Schneider
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Fingerings

Post by Schneider »

Hi,
As an answer to this post: http://www.notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42&p=639#p639
John Ruggero wrote:[...] It would not be common practice now to put the fingering on the staff in a keyboard solo. The numbers would be placed above or below the staff in the white spaces. All publishers adhere to this principle, because numbers obscure reading. Only in special circumstances is this not followed, for example, to specify the inner note of a chord, or if the polyphony is very complex. I just looked through editions of Bach by Henle and Wiener Urtext, Haydn by Universal etc. and had trouble finding finger numbers not placed as I describe, even for chords.

I was inquiring because I do not know the guitar tradition and wondered. But even if there is more of this in the guitar literature—which seems likely, given the nature of the instrument—I don't understand why it would be used for a single line as in your example.
On the score you're talking about, I was just following the composer's indications (Dyens).
Anyway, as a guitar player, I've always put my fingerings "in" the score, or let say partially "in".
Here's the beginning of an original edition of a Sor' study (ca.1820):
sor-op35-no8.png
sor-op35-no8.png (629.82 KiB) Viewed 8407 times
Nowadays, nearly 200 years later, most of the publishers follow the same rules (right hand (i, m, a, x) on top and p below, left fingering left-top for the upper voice, left-down for the lower voice and ca.left for the middle voices):
sor-op35-no8-new.png
sor-op35-no8-new.png (200.67 KiB) Viewed 8407 times
And so do I.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Fingerings

Post by John Ruggero »

Thanks, Pierre. That is a excellent explanation of guitar fingering engraving. I had looked through some of the older scores and seen what you are explaining, but was not sure that it was still modern practice, because the position of piano fingering has evolved over time. It is only relatively recently that fingering is kept off the staff so rigorously in piano music.
Last edited by John Ruggero on 08 Nov 2015, 23:44, edited 1 time in total.
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OCTO
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Re: Fingerings

Post by OCTO »

It might be something very special with the guitar scores. I don't expect this in a violin score, but hey, I was just amazed that I have never noticed this...
Bartok: Solo Sonata; page 1; B&H
Bartok: Solo Sonata; page 1; B&H
A 2015-11-08 at 9.35.22 PM.png (58.26 KiB) Viewed 8372 times
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John Ruggero
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Re: Fingerings

Post by John Ruggero »

It is a nice compliment to the engraver, OCTO, that you never noticed that. Fingering should be unobtrusive.

Piano music doesn't have the bowing indications that might force the fingering onto the staff as in the Bartok example. Also, piano music doesn't have the issue of what string plays the note, so fingering indications are not as "informational" as those for stringed instruments.

A good rule for piano fingering is to use as little as possible, even in educational music or editions. Composers rarely put in fingering, because it is generally obvious to a mature player. Therefore, the fingerings by major composers are of great interest, because they indicate something special. Along with pedaling, Chopin also wrote in more fingering than any other composer. At the time, his fingering system was as unique as his writing style and needed explication. Later composers who drew upon his discoveries did not need to continue to put in such fingering.

However, immature players still do need help and that is why the current practical Urtext editions generally include extensive fingering. But even in educational settings, fingering should be minimized as much as possible. There is an art to this based upon the following rules:

1.The more notes played simultaneously, the fewer the fingering possibilities. Therefore most chords of four or more notes need no fingering.
2.The greater the compass of a chord, the fewer the fingering possibilities. Therefore, chords and intervals of a seventh or greater in compass usually need no fingering.
3.Three-note chords and intervals of less than a seventh in compass have more fingering possibilities, but generally require only a single finger number.
4. Single-note lines have the most fingering possibilities and therefore require the greatest use of finger numbers. The finger number that will occur most will be 1, since the position of the thumb largely determines piano fingering.

It is ironic then, that full chordal textures are no-brainers in terms of fingering. Thinner polyphonic textures are far more difficult to finger.

Here is a modern edition of Beethoven's "Hammerklavier" Sonata. It illustrates several things of interest. First all fingering is minimized and kept off the staves. Secondly, the incredible "spreading" that we often see in modern editions; here it is in a good cause, to create a page turn. However, at this rate, an already very long piece will double in length.

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/look_inside?R=5676503 (Look inside example pages 4-6)
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John Ruggero
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Re: Fingerings

Post by John Ruggero »

Some more thoughts on finger numbers and engraving:

The actual positioning of fingering numbers remains a wild affair in engraving piano music. Slurs are the major competitors for space with finger numbers. Whether the number is over the slur, or under is constantly in question. And in the case of double or more stacks of numbers, there is the question of whether to allow the slur to cut through a space in the stack.

There is also the question of when to allow the numbers to fall under the beams and also onto the staff lines. In older scores one sees finger numbers follow notes that move low on the staff so that the numbers themselves are in the staff. The older style attempted to keep a relatively equal distance between the numbers the notes. Today, this is no longer followed when it would bring the numbers onto the staff.

Showing the fingering for a middle note of a chord is done in two ways: a stack of numbers above the chord, or a single number beside the chord; generally this would put the number on the staff. I think that latter system is best because it is economical and direct in spite of putting the number on the staff. One continues to see both systems in use today.

Today, it is very common to see finger numbers of the composer in italics, and those supplied by the editor in a non-talic font. If the composer has entered extensive fingering, this is sometimes reversed, as in the "Paderewski" edition of Chopin's music.

I use the numbers supplied with the music font as finger numbers; In the case of Maestro, at 13 pt. I input it as an articulation using keyboard commands using the 1, 2, 3, 4, and G keys. The five fingers of my left hand are placed so that the fifth finger falls on 1, the 4th on 2, the 3rd on 3, the 2nd on 4 and the thumb on G. In this way I can finger as I would actually play the the music with my left hand. Interchanging fingers is shown by a small slur or elision mark, or a longer slur for interchanges involving numbers positioned further apart. It was pointed out to me by Vaughan on the MM forum that the elision mark could be combined with numbers as an expression, and I am now using this system instead of the small slur where appropriate.
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