12/8 Question

Discuss the rules of notation, standard notation practices, efficient notation practices and graphic design.
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1310
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: 12/8 Question

Post by John Ruggero » 15 Oct 2015, 14:36

Peter, if (edit-the first measure of) X1 is now the preferred method, I think it unfortunate and a retrogression that it has nothing to do with the demise of hand copying. I wonder if Boosey now uses see half rests in 3/4 and 6/4?

The point of both the "Brahms" and Arnstein systems was to limit the different kinds of rests that the player encounters in 6/8 etc. so that it is more like 2/4:

In 2/4 and the Brahms 6/8, the player sees quarter and eighth rests, no dotted quarter rests allowed.

In the Arnstein 6/8, the player sees dotted quarter and eighth rests, no quarter rests allowed.

This cuts down on decision-making and potential confusion that arises when the player must deal with both the quarter and dotted quarter rest: "Let's see...is is dotted or not?" and this aids in reading in 6/8.
Last edited by John Ruggero on 15 Oct 2015, 15:27, edited 1 time in total.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

User avatar
Fred G. Unn
Posts: 185
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 13:24
Location: NYCish

Re: 12/8 Question

Post by Fred G. Unn » 15 Oct 2015, 14:56

If I'm reading it correctly, I think Peter was saying the current "correct" method is X1 for the first bar, and Arnstein for the second. I'm on board with that, and even if I haven't been totally consistent with this in the past, I think I'll stick to that going forward.

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1310
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: 12/8 Question

Post by John Ruggero » 15 Oct 2015, 15:29

In regard to Fred G. Unn's post above, I corrected my post to read "the first measure of X1."
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

Peter West
Posts: 129
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:26
Location: Cornwall, England
Contact:

Re: 12/8 Question

Post by Peter West » 15 Oct 2015, 20:41

I don't think players have too much trouble distinguishing a dotted rest from an undotted rest any more an they do a dotted note from an undotted one. If there is consistency in the use of rests, it will be clear that all whole beat rests will be a dotted rest, or not, depending which system is chosen. I prefer the dotted rest, but there is nothing wrong with either method.

As for ¾ , I am not aware of any publisher that allows a half rest in ¾.
Finale 2008/9/10/11/12/14, Sibelius 6/7.5, In Design CC 2015, Illustrator CS4

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1310
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: 12/8 Question

Post by John Ruggero » 15 Oct 2015, 22:00

I don't think players have too much trouble distinguishing a dotted rest from an undotted rest any more an they do a dotted note from an undotted one. If there is consistency in the use of rests, it will be clear that all whole beat rests will be a dotted rest, or not, depending which system is chosen. I prefer the dotted rest, but there is nothing wrong with either method
.

The fact that dotted rests have always been a notational step-child indicates to me that musicians do feel they are trickier than dotted notes. Arnstein in his wisdom must have realized this and used them only because quarter rests were excluded.

For me, X1 lacks consistency because sometimes one sees quarter rests (with dots) filling out whole triple-beats and sometimes quarter rests (without dots) not filling out triple-beats.
As for ¾ , I am not aware of any publisher that allows a half rest in ¾
I am afraid, however, that it is only a matter of time before this bastion of notational rationality will fall. You didn't mention 6/4, so I am afraid that Boosey may now be using half rests in 6/4, because it would seem to be illogical not to, given the quarter rests in 6/8.

Thank you very much for your patience, Peter, in answering my questions about Boosey current practices.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

Peter West
Posts: 129
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:26
Location: Cornwall, England
Contact:

Re: 12/8 Question

Post by Peter West » 16 Oct 2015, 21:01

half rests in 3/2 ok, but not in 6/4.

I think music notation evolves much like language. Language perhaps becomes more illogical because so many more people input their opinion until common usage takes over from common sense, or at least from logical construction. Music notation seems to evolve in the same away, and given so many more people who are less experienced/educated are putting their opinions into the melting pot, I suspect that music notation will evolve into something more illogical than it has been quite quickly.
Finale 2008/9/10/11/12/14, Sibelius 6/7.5, In Design CC 2015, Illustrator CS4

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1310
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: 12/8 Question

Post by John Ruggero » 16 Oct 2015, 22:32

In other words, everyone now has a computer with Finale or Sibelius installed. You are even more of pessimist than I am, Peter! Well, with the help of this and the Finale and Sibelius forums, we are going to turn this thing around.

"half rests in 3/2 ok, but not in 6/4" Thank goodness.

And quarter rests in 3/8? No, I am afraid to ask.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

Peter West
Posts: 129
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:26
Location: Cornwall, England
Contact:

Re: 12/8 Question

Post by Peter West » 27 Oct 2015, 15:20

quarter rests in ⅜? generally not, but some prefer to have quarter rests leading the beat (despite the rules for ¾ etc). This provides consistency with 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 etc.
Finale 2008/9/10/11/12/14, Sibelius 6/7.5, In Design CC 2015, Illustrator CS4

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1123
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: 12/8 Question

Post by OCTO » 28 Oct 2015, 10:29

Peter West wrote:quarter rests in ⅜? generally not, but some prefer to have quarter rests leading the beat (despite the rules for ¾ etc). This provides consistency with 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 etc.
I think the reason for that is that 3/8 should be interpreted as simple time but not compound time signature. So, rests at odd-even beat is OK, but not even-odd beat.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25 • Sibelius 2018 • MuseScore 2 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 9 • Digital Performer 9 /// OS X El Capitan, (side system: Debian 9, Windows 10)

Peter West
Posts: 129
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:26
Location: Cornwall, England
Contact:

Re: 12/8 Question

Post by Peter West » 28 Oct 2015, 16:37

That's logical.
Finale 2008/9/10/11/12/14, Sibelius 6/7.5, In Design CC 2015, Illustrator CS4

Post Reply