Courtesy clef size

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Knut
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Courtesy clef size

Post by Knut »

I'm wondering what size courtesy clefs you all use for clef changes. Gould (and Ross, I think) states that they should be 1/3 the size of the regular clef, while Finale reduces them to 75% by default.

Personally, I've always used the default size in Finale, and I find 1/3 to be too small. What do you think?
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John Ruggero
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by John Ruggero »

I agree, Knut. 70-75% is what I am accustomed to.

There is another issue with Finale small clefs: the treble clef doesn't sit on the bottom line and the bass clef doesn't touch the top line. Also, in experimenting with various clef sizes in the Document options>clefs>Default clef change>reduction, the small bass clef doesn't seem to change in size, no matter what the reduction! The treble and alto do change in size.

I wonder if the 75% was selected to keep the position issue above from too adversely affecting the bass clef.
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Knut
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by Knut »

John Ruggero wrote:I agree, Knut. 70-75% is what I am accustomed to.

There is another issue with Finale small clefs: the treble clef doesn't sit on the bottom line and the bass clef doesn't touch the top line.
It doesn't seem right to me that they should. It doesn't matter so much with the treble clef; having it sit on the bottom line is really not that big a deal, apart from the fact that the counter inside the spiral might get a bit screwed up by the staff line not going through it's centre. With the bass clef, however, having it touch the 5th line at a reduced size means that the dots will (more or less) collide with the 4th line. Either way, it seems logical to me that the clefs are centered around the staff line to which they apply, regardless of the amount of reduction.
John Ruggero wrote:Also, in experimenting with various clef sizes in the Document options>clefs>Default clef change>reduction, the small bass clef doesn't seem to change in size, no matter what the reduction! The treble and alto do change in size.
Really! I've never noticed. It can be hard to spot minor changes in bass clef size because of it's shape, but if this is really the case, it seems like a bug.

The reason I ask is that SMuFL recommends including small clefs as separate glyphs in a compliant font. This will keep the weight even and possibly simplify an 'off centre' alignment (if that is indeed how it should be). Finale (or any other scoring software) first has to make use of them of course.

Bravura has it's small clefs at the 'recommended' 1/3 size, while I'm strongly considering keeping mine at 75% like I'm used to.
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tisimst
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by tisimst »

1/3 size or 1/3 reduction (i.e., really 2/3 or 67% size)? I'm pretty sure the change-clef is not 1/3 the size of the normal clef. I guess I haven't measured it myself, but that seems silly to have it so small.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by John Ruggero »

Sorry, Knut, I should have checked the bass clef reduction in a default document. For some reason, it was not changing in a current working document, but is reduces properly in a new default document. No idea what has caused the issue.

(Edit- I now understand the issue: Finale makes one resize any mid-measure clef in the Mid-measure Clef Dialogue Box that comes up when you click a mid measure rest. I never select or edit a mid-measure clef this way, so I have never seen this before. It does seem absurd that mid-measure rests need to be independently edited in this way.)

Publishers seem to vary about the small clef touching the lines. Durand is OK with a clef floating in mid-air, but I don't think that it is attractive. It must require a completely different glyph to make everything work out properly so that it can touch the lines. Here is a Brahms example with small clefs in the "correct" proportions and position, touching the lines yet also entered around the G and F lines:
Brahms Handel Variations.jpg
Brahms Handel Variations.jpg (201.53 KiB) Viewed 10376 times
Last edited by John Ruggero on 27 Nov 2015, 19:23, edited 3 times in total.
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Knut
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by Knut »

tisimst wrote:1/3 size or 1/3 reduction (i.e., really 2/3 or 67% size)? I'm pretty sure the change-clef is not 1/3 the size of the normal clef. I guess I haven't measured it myself, but that seems silly to have it so small.
Sorry, you're right of course, I meant 67% size or 1/3 reduction. But even that seems too small to me.
Knut
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by Knut »

John Ruggero wrote:Publishers seem to vary about the small clef touching the lines. Durand is OK with a clef floating in mid-air, but I don't think that it attractive. It must require a completely different glyph to make everything work out properly so that it can touch the lines. Here is a Brahms example with small clefs in the "correct" proportions and position, touching the lines yet also entered around the G and F lines:
Brahms Handel Variations.jpg
I've seen both practices in Durand's scores, but seeing your example, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Anyway, I guess this is another argument for having special glyphs for this purpose, which means back to the 'drawing board' for me. :)
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John Ruggero
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by John Ruggero »

Please note my edit in my previous post.
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Knut
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by Knut »

John,

on closer inspection, it seems that in your example, the courtesy clefs are closer to 80% in size. This might be to large for some, I'd imagine.

Making the glyphs both centered and touching the staff lines, while simultaneously resemble the original design at 75%, would be quite difficult.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by John Ruggero »

I glanced through piano works by many publishers and saw a great variety of small clefs. Some Henle scores have them touching, others not. There are even scores that have both, as if the engravers were not careful enough. Often the treble clef sits on the bottom line, but the bass clef is positioned slightly below the top line to center the dots.

Breitkopf places them against the lines as shown in the Brahms example, which looks best to me. It is probably why I like the larger small clefs, along with visibility. I don't see great advantages to very small clefs from the players point of view. In any case, the Breitkopf are not obtrusive, whatever the percentage, and they do meet all other requirements. Somehow the font designer threaded the needle.

And the Breitkopf treble clef is one of my favorites!
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