Courtesy clef size

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Knut
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by Knut » 28 Nov 2015, 10:56

I looked through some Breitkopf scores on IMSLP, but most of those seemed to use a different clef set entirely, and in any case, the placement was not as consistent as in your Brahms example.

I've experimented a bit with the clef design, and I can honestly say that, especially for the treble clef, it seems nearly impossible to proportion a vertical size of 75-80% with a spiral touching the staff line above and below. I think one has to keep in mind that this may be a product of plate engraving, which would fill any small gaps between the lines with ink, as much as a larger clef size. For my clef design at least, the smallest reduction possible with the staff lines still touching the spiral is a little less than 90%

Just as a reference, here's the treble clef at 100%, 90%, 80%, 75% and 67%.
Skjermbilde 2015-11-28 kl. 11.03.04.png
Skjermbilde 2015-11-28 kl. 11.03.04.png (94.94 KiB) Viewed 2468 times
In the case of this design, without extensive alteration of the shape, I think 75% looks best because it eliminates the small gap between the top line and the counter of the eye.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by John Ruggero » 28 Nov 2015, 19:38

Here is another Brahms example. (This treble clef seems to be used for the piano music throughout the Complete Works.) As Knut has said, the small clef is a different shape. It barely touches the bottom line which allows it to circle the G line. The bass clef is also a different shape and just kisses the top line or sometimes misses a little because of engraver error.
Brahms Sonata.jpg
Brahms Sonata.jpg (309.24 KiB) Viewed 2452 times
In the second example from the Complete Works, a different clef is used for the chamber music (but the small clef might be the same as in the first example but rotated to match the G clef?)
Brahms Cello Sonata.jpg
Brahms Cello Sonata.jpg (259.25 KiB) Viewed 2452 times
The fact that the small clef might be a different shape from the large one and that this might influence the clef design of both is interesting.
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OCTO
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by OCTO » 28 Nov 2015, 22:19

John Ruggero wrote:The fact that the small clef might be a different shape from the large one and that this might influence the clef design of both is interesting.
Very interesting, indeed.

Knut's variants are very well done. I like that the smallest clef is a bit bolder than the normal size, and it completely makes the sense.
Something similar have been discussing here too viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8#p55

That is THE THING I miss mostly in the common notation tools today. I would prefer that they focus more on graphic than on MIDI...
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John Ruggero
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by John Ruggero » 29 Nov 2015, 00:25

Knut, I think that your 80% and 75% clefs work well. If only they could actually touch the bottom line! If you moved them down and uncoiled and emboldened the spiral a little more…? The Breitkopf seem to work because they are more bold and this gives more wiggle room.
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Knut
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by Knut » 29 Nov 2015, 11:54

John Ruggero wrote:I don't see great advantages to very small clefs from the players point of view.
The smaller clefs disrupts the spacing less. That is probably the reasoning behind the smaller mid measure clefs.
John Ruggero wrote:Knut, I think that your 80% and 75% clefs work well. If only they could actually touch the bottom line! If you moved them down and uncoiled and emboldened the spiral a little more…? The Breitkopf seem to work because they are more bold and this gives more wiggle room.
After even more research, I've found examples of sizes closer to 85%, which is too large in my opinion. I'm guessing this is close to the vertical size of the Breitkopf one as well, seeing as it almost touches the line above the spiral as well. I agree that they are not too obtrusive in the context of Brahms, but I'm guessing they might be in a tighter context.

One of the main goals of my own font is to handle such tight situations, and I therefore need to consider this aspect carefully. I think maybe a cross between the 80% and 75% would work. It would look something like this, I guess:
Skjermbilde 2015-11-29 kl. 12.38.47.png
Skjermbilde 2015-11-29 kl. 12.38.47.png (36.25 KiB) Viewed 2438 times

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John Ruggero
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by John Ruggero » 29 Nov 2015, 13:41

Wonderful! The bass clef is probably a little easier to make touch the top line.
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Knut
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by Knut » 29 Nov 2015, 14:02

John Ruggero wrote:Wonderful! The bass clef is probably a little easier to make touch the top line.
Thanks! Most definitely, yes.

We haven't discussed the c clef yet, but I'm not sure if that one needs any special 'fitting' besides a proportional reduction.

I'll reengrave one of the Brahms examples as a test when all the clefs are done.

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OCTO
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by OCTO » 29 Nov 2015, 15:21

I wonder how the different clef variants can be implemented in the current notation software? Does SMUFL support this?
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John Ruggero
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by John Ruggero » 29 Nov 2015, 16:30

OCTO, that was my first thought as well. There are different tastes and situations involved here and multiple options would be nice.

In looking over the first Brahms example, I do see a crowding issue involving both bass clefs. But this could have been easily avoided with better spacing.

The c clefs would seem to be a non-issue.
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Knut
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Re: Courtesy clef size

Post by Knut » 29 Nov 2015, 18:16

OCTO wrote:I wonder how the different clef variants can be implemented in the current notation software? Does SMUFL support this?
Yes, that is the reason I started the thread. I don't know, however, if Finale or any other existing software will make use of them, even if they eventually will support SMuFL, but I'm quite certain the Sternberg scoring application will, whenever it's released.

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