Notation Programs' Output Comparison

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Knut
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Re: Notation Programs' Output Comparison

Post by Knut » 13 Apr 2016, 17:19

OCTO wrote:I can compose a piece for that purpose. :-)
A piece for piano solo including pianist's singing in mezzosoprano clef.
That's a great idea (even if you were just kidding).

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Re: Notation Programs' Output Comparison

Post by Knut » 13 Apr 2016, 17:25

OCTO wrote:A short comment about "default" settings. I don't believe in default settings, at least not for Finale neither Sibelius. What I mean is that someone adjusted software settings in order to present "some kind of house style". I remember clearly how the default document in Finale has been changing and it will change in the future.
The default settings would be if we put all settings at 0 value and turn off all knobs.
I agree!

At least I think default settings are irrelevant if the purpose is to showcase the abilities of the application (in addition to the engraver).

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tisimst
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Re: Notation Programs' Output Comparison

Post by tisimst » 13 Apr 2016, 17:26

OCTO wrote:A short comment about "default" settings. I don't believe in default settings, at least not for Finale neither Sibelius. What I mean is that someone adjusted software settings in order to present "some kind of house style". I remember clearly how the default document in Finale has been changing and it will change in the future.
The default settings would be if we put all settings at 0 value and turn off all knobs.
Each program comes with "default" settings embedded either within the application settings or within a pre-set template file. That's what I mean. Use what comes with the program and not something that the user has tweaked for one sample and then let the engraver go crazy with their own settings for the other.

Again, that is not something that HAS to be done, I just thought it would be an interesting exercise. Who knows? Maybe it would encourage app developers to adjust their settings if they saw how bad their current settings are... (I'm not pointing fingers at any app, it's just a thought)
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OCTO
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Re: RE: Re: Notation Programs' Output Comparison

Post by OCTO » 13 Apr 2016, 17:34

tisimst wrote:
Again, that is not something that HAS to be done, I just thought it would be an interesting exercise. Who knows? Maybe it would encourage app developers to adjust their settings if they saw how bad their current settings are... (I'm not pointing fingers at any app, it's just a thought)
That makes sense, a good point!
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John Ruggero
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Re: Notation Programs' Output Comparison

Post by John Ruggero » 13 Apr 2016, 18:17

I also think that tisimst's idea is excellent. This might be left up to the engraver, so that one might make one or two submissions; one might be of the totally default type suggested.

Other possible pieces:

The slow movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata op. 101:
it's in PD, fits on one page, the autograph, first edition and much other material are available at IMSLP, it has a lot of notational variety, including complex rhythms, small notes, and a cadenza, and it is well-known. The only negative is that while it has extensive pedaling by the composer, it has few dynamic markings.

http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnk ... Op.101.pdf

The introduction to Beethoven's Piano Sonata op. 13
it's in PD, fits on one page, the autograph is lost, but the first edition and much other material is available at IMSLP, it has a lot of notational variety, including complex rhythms and many dynamics, and it is very well-known. Negatives: no small notes and no MS.

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usi ... -Op.13.pdf
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Re: Notation Programs' Output Comparison

Post by Knut » 14 Apr 2016, 23:00

I like the your second suggestion of Beethoven a lot, John.

It dawned on me that IMSLP might hold manuscripts for unpublished works by renowned composers. A quick search lead me to Masennet. The most appropriate work of his is perhaps a piece for Contralto and Piano:
http://ks.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usim ... lon_MS.pdf

It is likely a bit too simple for this purpose and doesn't fit on a single page, unfortunately. But I would encourage everyone to have unpublished works in mind as potential source material.

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Re: Notation Programs' Output Comparison

Post by DatOrganistTho » 14 Apr 2016, 23:59

Is everyone aware of what is already being done here?: https://github.com/engraving-challenges/winterwind
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Re: Notation Programs' Output Comparison

Post by tisimst » 15 Apr 2016, 05:44

DatOrganistTho wrote:Is everyone aware of what is already being done here?: https://github.com/engraving-challenges/winterwind
I'm not sure this engraving challenge falls within the scope of what we're trying to accomplish. Although interesting, the winterwind score quickly became a contest of who could even engrave the unusual beams the same way as the original which caused everything else about the score to fall by the wayside. I'm not sure that is the right approach for this.

I've rather enjoyed looking through John's Elegy samples because there are things in each engraving that I like and dislike. They all drive you towards better engraving.
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Re: Notation Programs' Output Comparison

Post by Knut » 15 Apr 2016, 12:10

tisimst wrote:
DatOrganistTho wrote:Is everyone aware of what is already being done here?: https://github.com/engraving-challenges/winterwind
I'm not sure this engraving challenge falls within the scope of what we're trying to accomplish. Although interesting, the winterwind score quickly became a contest of who could even engrave the unusual beams the same way as the original which caused everything else about the score to fall by the wayside. I'm not sure that is the right approach for this.

I've rather enjoyed looking through John's Elegy samples because there are things in each engraving that I like and dislike. They all drive you towards better engraving.
+1

I wonder what the point of this kind of beaming really is. If it's purpose is just to convey the same information as with standard secondary beam breaks, I can definitely see why it hasn't caught on, but it would be interesting to know more about it.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Notation Programs' Output Comparison

Post by John Ruggero » 15 Apr 2016, 13:11

I was unaware of that site and from my first encounter, will need some time to orient myself in it, which I hope to do, since there is seems to much of value there. However, I hope that what we do here will be simpler and possibly more informative: submissions by engravers showing the whole scope of present music engraving on a computer, from replica's to urtexts to personal editions.

The beaming in the Godowsky is to show a "hint" of 3/4 hemiola fighting the groups of 6 within each 6/8 half measure. If he had written it as twelve beamed notes with 3 normal four-note secondary beamed groups, the groups of 6 would have been lost. A simpler notation would have been to omit the unusual connecting beams and broken the 16th beams 4 + 2, 2 + 4 for each half measure. Everyone would have known what was meant.

The hemiola is very easily produced by the change of hand position when the pattern is played by the left hand because the thumb generally falls at the beginning of each group. In the original, where the pattern is in the RH, Chopin simply wrote normal groups of sextuplets because he didn't want a hemiola. In fact, just the opposite: a smooth chromatic line without a lot of internal accentuation.

I am glad you like the suggestion, Knut, and I like yours as well. I tried to search for a list of all composer's autographs at IMSLP without success. There is no such animal under genre. If anyone could give me a URL I would be very grateful.

OT—I use IMSLP constantly, as is obvious, and have contributed, which I urge all to do. However, I find the site arcane and user unfriendly once one gets below the surface. For example, I would love to contribute some PDFs that are badly needed, but don't have the energy to do all the research on the site necessary to do so.
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