Pausing in Debussy

Have your scores reviewed by other users. Comment on old and new published scores and on publishers.
Post Reply
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1738
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Pausing in Debussy

Post by OCTO »

From Durand's edition of "Rondes de Printemps".
Interesting that omitting the quarter rest is very strict and forced.
ADD EDIT: I mean, omitting the quarter dot rest.
deb.jpg
deb.jpg (77.78 KiB) Viewed 11530 times
Last edited by OCTO on 09 Sep 2016, 08:37, edited 1 time in total.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 27.3 • Sibelius 2023.5• MuseScore 4+ • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 11+ • Digital Performer 10+ /// MacOS Monterey (secondary in use systems: Fedora 35, Windows 10)
Christof Schardt
Posts: 35
Joined: 17 Jun 2016, 10:00

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by Christof Schardt »

From the short extract I deduce the following:
The measure is consisting of 5 dotted quarters grouped in 3+2. These are divided in 3 eighth each, which results in a 15/8 time.
If the engraver now would write a 1/2+1/4 rest instead of the dotted half, this would be against the division of the bar (by partially spanning two beats). So he must either notate two dotted quarter rests or - as seen - one dotted half rest.

I would perceive this music as a 5/4 time with a triplet-feeling on the beats.
Software Developer, Musician and Engraving Aficionado
PriMus 1.1
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1738
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by OCTO »

Sorry, I was typing incorrectly. I mean, the engraver, or Debussy, omitted :4dr (dotted quarter rest). But there is a dotted half rest.
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2449
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by John Ruggero »

1/4 rest—1/8th rest was the style then, but it could have been worse, at least they used the dotted half rests.

In Fetes, Debussy (or the engraver) didn't:
Fetes.jpg
Fetes.jpg (166.35 KiB) Viewed 11508 times
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1738
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by OCTO »

Interestin example, John. That's very tiresome to read. We are definitely witnessing better notation standards today.
Is there any new edition of these pieces?
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 27.3 • Sibelius 2023.5• MuseScore 4+ • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 11+ • Digital Performer 10+ /// MacOS Monterey (secondary in use systems: Fedora 35, Windows 10)
RMK
Posts: 123
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 12:12

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by RMK »

Durand made a new critical edition in 1999.
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2449
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by John Ruggero »

If Durand did not use half rests in the 3/4 part of 5/4, they were inconsistent in using dotted half rests in the 9/8 part of a 15/8. Arnstein would have used dotted quarter rests only in the 9/8 parts of the measures.

The way whole measures of rest are shown in both scores is also interesting and apparently caused issues. It would be interesting to see what Debussy actually wrote here. Judging from the MS of Gigues, probably nothing at all in the these measures. He simply left rest measures blank.

http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usim ... ebussy.pdf

The parts have simple whole measure rests without dotted bar lines or multiple rests.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
MJCube
Posts: 130
Joined: 15 Dec 2015, 13:32
Location: NYC

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by MJCube »

I’m in favor of dotted rests when:
a. the value is the beat (e.g. :4dr in 6/8)
b. the value is a sensible division of a long bar (e.g. :5d rest in 12/8)*
c. combined with one or more pickup notes they constitute a beat (e.g. :3dr :2 in 4/4)

I haven’t thought this through quite thoroughly, so probably there will be exceptions.
As an editor I never allow a :5d rest in 4/4, and I find even :4dr is misleading in 4/4.
(In 2/2 :4dr can make sense in the case of [c] above.)

* (Lacking symbols here for :5 & larger rests, I used the note value.)
Curiously, Sibelius doesn’t do :5d rests by default, even though it does :4dr (i.e. opposite to the OP’s example).
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2449
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by John Ruggero »

I think that yours is a very sensible approach to dotted rests, MJCube.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
Post Reply