Pausing in Debussy

Have your scores reviewed by other users. Comment on old and new published scores and on publishers.
Post Reply
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1022
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Pausing in Debussy

Post by OCTO » 09 Sep 2016, 04:41

From Durand's edition of "Rondes de Printemps".
Interesting that omitting the quarter rest is very strict and forced.
ADD EDIT: I mean, omitting the quarter dot rest.
deb.jpg
deb.jpg (77.78 KiB) Viewed 3129 times
Last edited by OCTO on 09 Sep 2016, 08:37, edited 1 time in total.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25 • Sibelius 8 • MuseScore 2 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 9 • Digital Performer 9 /// OS X El Capitan, (side system: Debian 9, Windows 7)

Christof Schardt
Posts: 24
Joined: 17 Jun 2016, 10:00

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by Christof Schardt » 09 Sep 2016, 08:31

From the short extract I deduce the following:
The measure is consisting of 5 dotted quarters grouped in 3+2. These are divided in 3 eighth each, which results in a 15/8 time.
If the engraver now would write a 1/2+1/4 rest instead of the dotted half, this would be against the division of the bar (by partially spanning two beats). So he must either notate two dotted quarter rests or - as seen - one dotted half rest.

I would perceive this music as a 5/4 time with a triplet-feeling on the beats.
Software Developer, Musician and Engraving Aficionado
PriMus 1.1

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1022
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by OCTO » 09 Sep 2016, 08:36

Sorry, I was typing incorrectly. I mean, the engraver, or Debussy, omitted :4dr (dotted quarter rest). But there is a dotted half rest.

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1237
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by John Ruggero » 09 Sep 2016, 20:43

1/4 rest—1/8th rest was the style then, but it could have been worse, at least they used the dotted half rests.

In Fetes, Debussy (or the engraver) didn't:
Fetes.jpg
Fetes.jpg (166.35 KiB) Viewed 3107 times
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1022
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by OCTO » 09 Sep 2016, 22:35

Interestin example, John. That's very tiresome to read. We are definitely witnessing better notation standards today.
Is there any new edition of these pieces?
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25 • Sibelius 8 • MuseScore 2 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 9 • Digital Performer 9 /// OS X El Capitan, (side system: Debian 9, Windows 7)

RMK
Posts: 60
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 12:12

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by RMK » 09 Sep 2016, 22:52

Durand made a new critical edition in 1999.

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1237
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by John Ruggero » 10 Sep 2016, 14:28

If Durand did not use half rests in the 3/4 part of 5/4, they were inconsistent in using dotted half rests in the 9/8 part of a 15/8. Arnstein would have used dotted quarter rests only in the 9/8 parts of the measures.

The way whole measures of rest are shown in both scores is also interesting and apparently caused issues. It would be interesting to see what Debussy actually wrote here. Judging from the MS of Gigues, probably nothing at all in the these measures. He simply left rest measures blank.

http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usim ... ebussy.pdf

The parts have simple whole measure rests without dotted bar lines or multiple rests.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

MJCube
Posts: 130
Joined: 15 Dec 2015, 13:32
Location: NYC

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by MJCube » 12 Sep 2016, 14:25

I’m in favor of dotted rests when:
a. the value is the beat (e.g. :4dr in 6/8)
b. the value is a sensible division of a long bar (e.g. :5d rest in 12/8)*
c. combined with one or more pickup notes they constitute a beat (e.g. :3dr :2 in 4/4)

I haven’t thought this through quite thoroughly, so probably there will be exceptions.
As an editor I never allow a :5d rest in 4/4, and I find even :4dr is misleading in 4/4.
(In 2/2 :4dr can make sense in the case of [c] above.)

* (Lacking symbols here for :5 & larger rests, I used the note value.)
Curiously, Sibelius doesn’t do :5d rests by default, even though it does :4dr (i.e. opposite to the OP’s example).

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1237
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Pausing in Debussy

Post by John Ruggero » 13 Sep 2016, 02:16

I think that yours is a very sensible approach to dotted rests, MJCube.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

Post Reply