Spatial piece

Have your scores reviewed by other users. Comment on old and new published scores and on publishers.
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2453
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Spatial piece

Post by John Ruggero »

No one followed Chopin's notational practice after him, even Scriabin. Some wrote out all the held tones (Debussy), others wrote in styles that utilized some of Chopin's innovations, but which were now so well-known that the Ped, markings could be omitted (Brahms, Liszt, Faure etc.)

The little square symbol or some other similar symbol would mean: stop playing and rest until the next notated event.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
Peter West
Posts: 129
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:26
Location: Cornwall, England
Contact:

Re: Spatial piece

Post by Peter West »

Using extension lines to show relative stopping places in unmeasured music is not unknown elsewhere. For example Philipe Manoury uses them in almost every piece. In fact he now uses it as the standard notation to show the duration of a note in unmeasured bars, even when they fill the bar. This adds a consistency to the notation and makes the unmeasured bars instantly recognisable.
Attachments
Melancolia(Qtor)_20130212 (dragged).pdf
(287.01 KiB) Downloaded 423 times
Finale 2008/9/10/11/12/14, Sibelius 6/7.5, In Design CC 2015, Illustrator CS4
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2453
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Spatial piece

Post by John Ruggero »

Peter, I know that those lines have been used for several decades now, but I just feel that there must be simpler and more attractive alternative.

In the particular case of Melancolia, I don't understand why the fermatas don't suffice (other than the consistency you mentioned).
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1742
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Spatial piece

Post by OCTO »

I would agree with John, there is absolutely no need to have lines. Interesting also, he has slashed rests on fermatas: why not slashed notes on fermatas?
John Ruggero wrote:The little square symbol or some other similar symbol would mean: stop playing and rest until the next notated event.
I still can't get it. What is the dotted line representing?
If it is spatial-score, than I need to know more about the reference points. These are missing, making that example unusable. The notehead can be performed one second, or one million years.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 27.3 • Sibelius 2023.5• MuseScore 4+ • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 11+ • Digital Performer 10+ /// MacOS Monterey (secondary in use systems: Fedora 35, Windows 10)
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2453
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Spatial piece

Post by John Ruggero »

This was just a rough attempt at something to replace the extension line, which I dislike because it reverses the normal meaning of our notational system as it has developed over centuries. We use small symbols to represent longer events. For example, a whole note is not a great long losenge occupying the whole measure. This means that the musical picture is simplified.

In my admittedly pathetic little diagram, the dotted line is a dotted barline. The note without a stem would be held through from that point and through the dotted bar line into the next measure and against anything else going on. It would stop at the square symbol. A note would mean what it normally means: keep holding until the next symbol occurs. Ties would not be used, further simplifying the picture.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1742
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Spatial piece

Post by OCTO »

I understand now.
One of the main frameworks of the standard notation is exactly what you have described, notehead represents some value. And true, small notehead :6 doesn't occupy the whole measure, but there is a white space that allows this. You are forced to play something using the white space, until you reach another tone, rest or barline.
Remember that it is even more elastic: we don't have equal spacing in the standard notation. Visually one :6 occupies more space than one :2 , if we speak about composite values on the same page (so to say: not music that has only :6 at one page, but different values).

In the standard notation we have values and these values are determined by noteheads and flags, and visually they are spaced according to the noteheads' values using the white spaces for the visualization.

But in the spatial notation there are no different noteheads. It is completely unimportant which notehead is used, and if values are determined by the length of the line (or space), than the noteheads must be of the same shape.
Because they are of the same shape we have to use some kind of information to determinate the length. Horizontal lines are the most efficient way to show that a note is holding until the end of line.

That is particularly important for instruments that can have sustained tones, for instance - flute. On the other side, the sustained tones can be applied in the piano without lines if we use lasciare vibrare or :ped .
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 27.3 • Sibelius 2023.5• MuseScore 4+ • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 11+ • Digital Performer 10+ /// MacOS Monterey (secondary in use systems: Fedora 35, Windows 10)
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2453
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Spatial piece

Post by John Ruggero »

The duration information would the white space that follows the note head until the cessation symbol (the little black square or other such symbol) occurs. The notes would be shorter or longer depending on where the cessation symbol occurs. The fastest notes would have no cessation symbol following them and would probably be written in standard notation. It as exactly like the extension line, except that only the last little bit of the line (the cessation symbol) is actually printed. The rest of it is "abbreviated". This would remove those ugly back lines that, to me, look like angry blots on the music.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
Peter West
Posts: 129
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:26
Location: Cornwall, England
Contact:

Re: Spatial piece

Post by Peter West »

It seems to me that there are two separate issues under consideration here"

1. Do extension lines look ugly and are they necessary. This is a purely subjective decision, and one cannot say that either is right or wrong.

2. Given that the decision has been made to use them, should they be used everywhere that their meaning is relevant, or should they only be used when traditional notation is not sufficiently clear. Again this divides into two subjective decisions: Should they be used across the board or not, and what is the threshold for using/not using if they are not.

We can each express an opinion but there can be no definitive decision here, especially as they are becoming more common and can not be excised from the repertoire.

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the composer should each decide for themselves. I vote for consistency so that there can never be any grey areas. Clarity is paramount. If you think the lines detract from clarity, so be it, if you think they are the simplest way to notate clearly, so be it.

We could take any score and look at each example individually and determine a different way to notate it, but as a whole this could become a hodgepodge of various notations, where the simple line is always clear (even if you don't like it!)

I add a sample page, again manoury, from string quartet No 2, with electronics "Tensio". The passage at 1.1 would be less clear any other way, but that is not to say that there are no possible alternatives. At sections 2 and 4 it is quite clear when comparing Violin 1 to the others: no line means silence, line means the sound sustains. Again there are other ways to notate this, but it is clear and consistent with other implementations of the line. It works well (even if you don't like it!)
Attachments
p43.pdf
(576.02 KiB) Downloaded 393 times
Finale 2008/9/10/11/12/14, Sibelius 6/7.5, In Design CC 2015, Illustrator CS4
User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 2453
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Spatial piece

Post by John Ruggero »

I think that composers have a right and a duty to come up with the best way to notate their music. However, along with this right comes the responsibility not to create new notations needlessly, or music will eventually descend into a babble.

There is relationship between the quality of a piece of music and the way it is notated. When one looks at the greatest music, one is impressed by economy and simplicity of means used. Where two symbols might be used by the lesser composer, the better composer chooses the one, more apt one. When the lesser composer is forced to create a new notation, the better one sees how normal notation will suffice.

I think that that extension line is probably unavoidable where an indefinite note or a process must be shown continuing. However, we already have symbols for the simple continuation of a specific tones. The only issue concerns tones held for free durations. I think that should be addressed in ways that adhere more to normal practice.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1742
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Spatial piece

Post by OCTO »

I do agree with John that the lines in fermata measures in Peter's example is not the best way to notate it.

But I want to point one thing which for me makes sense:
During the XX century we see development of musical structures in amazing ways. An example is Ferneyhough and Penderecki (earlier works).
I use to say to my students: "theoretically, all music in all times is possible to notate in 4/4 and in tempo 60" (even ritardandos or whatever; we know it if we open some non-quantized MIDI in a notation software). But when Penderecki writes a triangle and a line after it, that means: play the highest note on your instrument and hold it as long you see the line (in a spatial piece); than, it is the very, extremely, extraordinary the most efficient way to notate it. It is easy to notate, easy to understand, easy to practice and easy to perform.
I can show another example of my piece that involves lines, which solves many problems in the performance.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 27.3 • Sibelius 2023.5• MuseScore 4+ • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 11+ • Digital Performer 10+ /// MacOS Monterey (secondary in use systems: Fedora 35, Windows 10)
Post Reply