Font Attempt

Music notation symbols, fonts, font sources and font creation, SmuFL.
Florian
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Re: Font Attempt

Post by Florian » 09 Dec 2017, 11:06

Well done, odod! This is a fine music font indeed.

Beautiful clefs! Would you show us your C-clef? Did you design smaller clefs for clef changes?

I like the flat! I think that the accidentals are pretty well balanced. I agree with Knut that in terms of balance the flat could be a bit heavier. I’m not so sure about the thickness of the vertical strokes of the sharp and natural though. The vertical strokes of the sharp are usually thinner, yes, but isn’t this a bit too much? Just my impression, and based on an image on a screen… so probably not at all acurate.

I second John’s reservation about the fingerings. In addition to what he said I would recommend you to think about those numerals. Are the numeral shapes designed specifically for fingerings or are they scaled down versions of the numerals for time signatures? I couldn’t tell. I think that in terms of legibility they are not suitable to being printed at small sizes: too much contrast, not enough white space.
Talking about numbers: are the bar numbers your design too? And no italic numbers for tuplets?

I wonder if making the noteheads a tad wider would aid legibility. The half note heads are beautiful, I think that their thin strokes are too thin compared to the rest of the font.

I agree with pretty much everything that John said about the engraving. I think he didn’t mention that some of your slur endpoints are awfully far away from the noteheads/stems (eg. Schumann bars 16, 21, 25). In Schumann, bar 24, the first eighth note in the left hand staff is too far away from the half note. (This looks a bit like Dorico’s default overreaction to coinciding voices.) Just curious: are your ties actually thicker than your slurs?

As for Finale: can you be more specific? What are your problems? Do you generate TrueType or OpenType fonts?
What about keeping to a proven strategy and using Maestro as a template?
In the long run it would probably be best to make your font smufl compatible. I think Finale will support smufl in the next major release. I don’t know about Sibelius though.

Generally, once again: well done!

P.S. You must be the only other person I met who uses Nepomuk for text expressions. You made me smile happily. :)

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John Ruggero
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Re: Font Attempt

Post by John Ruggero » 09 Dec 2017, 16:06

I agree with Schonbergian, Knut and Florian that the black note heads might be a little wider. But I think this is a matter of taste.

If an expression or hairpin pertains to both staves, I position it (by eye) so that it appears "centered" between the music in the two hands. (This does not mean exactly centered between the staves as somewhat inaccurately stated by Elaine Gould, because of many complex factors in play.) You appear to be following this principle to some extent, but, as in much engraved music, not entirely. So, for me, the mf in m. 7 is a little high (and also too far to the right) as is the dim. in m. 9. It is interesting that the first edition and the Breitkopf Complete Works has the initial p "centered" even though the left hand is resting, since the dynamic pertains to the left hand in the next measure.

In comparing some of the editions of this piece at IMSLP, I noticed something that I found quite enlightening. The engraving of E. H. Jones appears quite crowded in spite of its many excellent qualities. Yet the first edition, the Breitkopf and others that use more measures per system appear less crowded. From this I conclude that fewer systems per page trumps fewer measures per line in tight situations.
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odod
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Re: Font Attempt

Post by odod » 10 Dec 2017, 12:36

Thank you for the positive inputs everyone, i must say i need more knowledge about engraving, and i am really thirsty for that.
because i learned all by myself i hope you can understand my stand for this matter.

I want to have natural effect for this font to simulate "plate" alike result, however i do agree that i need to improve the black note heads.
Any comments related to the flag ?

and the fact Sibelius is really lack for things such as slurs, beam angle and other technical stuffs sometimes really makes me so desperate.

@florian .. yess indeed, i love nepomuk always, is almost perfect for all situation.

@john : next time i will start on the first edition as you suggested

and now, here's another attempt to simulate Schott's edition (newly designed still beta)
i was tempted after looking some of Schott's edition on Scumann's arabesque .. this is unchecked engraving piece yet .. just a quick copy.
Schumann_0001.png
Schumann_0001.png (1.24 MiB) Viewed 958 times
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John Ruggero
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Re: Font Attempt

Post by John Ruggero » 10 Dec 2017, 15:48

Your engraving has a warm, inviting overall appearance, but seems to be a different font from the previous examples. The black noteheads will appeal to those, like me, who like wider ones. The flags in all of your examples seem OK to me. Thanks for bringing Nepomuk to my attention. It is an excellent font.

Same comment regarding slurs: too arched. This affects the two note slurs particularly negatively.

The second sixteenth in many of the middle voice groups is too close to the following eighth note. Some hairpins are crowding the beams. I would narrow and raise them a little. These are things you would probably correct later.

You are making great progress, odod, but I don't understand your desire to closely imitate existing editions, since so many are deficient in various ways and you will reproduce bad as well as good things. (I have never used current Schott editions for most of the standard literature, because I have found nothing to commend them from a performer's point of view.) But perhaps you are just experimenting in search of a personal engraving style.
Last edited by John Ruggero on 11 Dec 2017, 15:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Florian
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Re: Font Attempt

Post by Florian » 10 Dec 2017, 21:27

John Ruggero wrote:
10 Dec 2017, 15:48
Thanks for bringing Nepomuk to my attention. It is an excellent font.
Thank you, John! Judging from your posts here you're not easily satisfied, so this means a lot.

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odod
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Re: Font Attempt

Post by odod » 10 Dec 2017, 22:36

John Ruggero wrote:
10 Dec 2017, 15:48
Your engraving has a warm, inviting overall appearance, but seems to be a different font from the previous examples. The black noteheads will appeal to those, like me, who like wider ones. I flags in all of your examples seem OK to me. Thanks for bringing Nepomuk to my attention. It is an excellent font.

Same comment regarding slurs: too arched. This affects the two note slurs particularly negatively.

The second sixteenth in many of the middle voice groups is too close to the following eighth note. Some hairpins are crowding the beams. I would narrow and raise them a little. These are things you would probably correct later.

You are making great progress, odod, but I don't understand your desire to closely imitate existing editions, since so many are deficient in various ways and you will reproduce bad as well as good things. (I have never used current Schott editions for most of the standard literature, because I have found nothing to commend them from a performer's point of view.) But perhaps you are just experimenting in search of a personal engraving style.
thank you John, it is a different one .. this time i used schott's style font (incomplete yet),
the reason is i always hate the default Maestro and Opus font, because somehow it does not have any personalities to my eyes. while major publisher like Henle, Schott, AR Editions, they're still using the old house style for their font regardless using FInale or Sibelius for the engraving process.

do you have any suggestion regarding the slurs arc ? because this is really difficult to mastered.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Font Attempt

Post by John Ruggero » 11 Dec 2017, 00:29

odod, I understand your interest in the fonts used by these publishers and desire to personalize your engraving, but not why you seem to imitate other less praiseworthy aspects of these editions. But maybe I am wrong about you doing that. In any case, for me, the personalizing has more to do with decisions regarding layout, settings etc. than the actual font, as important as that is.

There is a previous Notatio thread concerning Finale slur settings that might be of help, if you can apply them within Sibelius. Or simply imitate the best editions; I believe that you will find the slur curvature less arched than yours. For me, the Breitkopf Complete Works of Brahms is one of the high points of music engraving. Study the slurs in this edition. I am not sure that I would agree that Henle is what it once was. Their new editions are quite disappointing.

Florian, I think I might be using Nepomuk if I didn't already have a text font that I am very happy with by Notatio member Wess.
Last edited by John Ruggero on 11 Dec 2017, 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
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odod
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Re: Font Attempt

Post by odod » 11 Dec 2017, 02:12

John Ruggero wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 00:29
odod, I understand your interest in the fonts used by these publishers and desire to personalize your engraving, but not why you seem to imitate other less praiseworthy aspects of these editions. But maybe I am wrong about you doing that. In any case, for me, the personalizing has more to do with decisions regarding layout, settings etc. than the actual font, as important as that is.

There is a previous Notatio thread concerning Finale slur settings that might be of help, if you can apply them within Sibelius. Or simply imitate the best editions; I believe that you will find the slur curvature less arched than yours. For me, the Breitkopf Complete Works of Brahms is one of high points of music engraving. Study the slurs in this edition. I am not sure that I would agree that Henle is what it once was. Their new editions are quite disappointing.

Florian, I think I might be using Nepomuk if I didn't already have a text font that I am very happy with by Notatio member Wess.
Agree, of course font is not the only aspects, however i learned some of the publisher's layout regarding size, margins etc. i learned that especially when you print it .. its always on concert size and the margins are vary between publishers. i uses Octo's few suggestion regarding to Slur, however i need to turned off the Magnetic Layout if i want to go with FULL ENGRAVING mode .. which is really tiring sometimes :) .. and my style is mostly based on Henle's house style added with my own font preference.
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OCTO
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Re: Font Attempt

Post by OCTO » 11 Dec 2017, 09:16

John Ruggero wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 00:29
odod, I understand your interest in the fonts used by these publishers and desire to personalize your engraving, but not why you seem to imitate other less praiseworthy aspects of these editions. But maybe I am wrong about you doing that. In any case, for me, the personalizing has more to do with decisions regarding layout, settings etc. than the actual font, as important as that is.
I think that odod is fascinated by music fonts on a purely esthetical experience of the symbols, and I indeed understand him well, since I am too very interested in that. Also the subject of this thread is just about his font attempt.

But I would like to embolden your thought that not font (unless it is a ridiculously bad font [such as g-clef in Opus]) but everything else decide the engraving quality. I completely agree with that statement.
I was stunned by an edition made in Finale 2001 which used just plain Maestro+TimesNR fonts. It was truly an ingenious use of the software.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Font Attempt

Post by John Ruggero » 11 Dec 2017, 16:22

odod, I think that through your admirable experimentation, you will gain more and more self-confidence and become less reliant on existing editions. Then your engraving will be completely "personalized."
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