Fantastic old scores' simulation + fonts

Music notation symbols, fonts, font sources and font creation, SmuFL.
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OCTO
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Fantastic old scores' simulation + fonts

Post by OCTO » 04 Nov 2015, 08:11

Our friend Wess has posted on his Dropbox examples of his own font collections, with examples.
What I find fascinating is his meticulous simulation of old scores - I guess just for this purpose. Please check this link for his fonts and examples: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/f0udkrvb8xvh ... R7Kza?dl=0
Here is an example of digitally engraved score. It is Finale and Photoshop. I guess Wess used Illustratior for some tweaking.
Attachments
3.a  Haydn Sonate 23 [photo shop].jpg
3.a Haydn Sonate 23 [photo shop].jpg (581.98 KiB) Viewed 3261 times
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Finale 2014.5 • Sibelius 7.1.3 • MuseScore 2.3 • Logic Pro X.1 • Ableton Live 9.7 • Digital Performer 9.1 /// OS X Yosemite

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John Ruggero
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Re: Fantastic old scores' simulation + fonts

Post by John Ruggero » 06 Nov 2015, 03:04

Placed on old paper like this, the simulation is even more amazing. This is engraving that is beyond criticism and must be one of the finest examples ever done with a computer.

I have just one caveat, which I know is not relevant, but I must still say it anyway, because it brings up an issue that should probably be discussed in another thread. The edition being simulated, while beautiful and very good for its time, is not authentic. Almost all of the slurs are not by Haydn, for example. This negates numerous articulations intended by the composer. For example, in the first measure, the two quarter notes should be slurred as a pair independently from the first beat. This occurs at every instance of this motive throughout the piece and creates a slight bounce in the rhythm that says: "Haydn" not "pablum." When the slurring of this motive continues on into the next measure as in 14-15 LH it is even more against the style of this composer and his fellows.

It is ironic then that some of the most beautifully engraved music was done at a time when editorial standards were lower than today.
Last edited by John Ruggero on 06 Nov 2015, 15:21, edited 1 time in total.
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wess-music
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Re: Fantastic old scores' simulation + fonts

Post by wess-music » 06 Nov 2015, 09:08

Dear Octo,

thank you for your contribution and positivity at my huge work on this Henle-like font.

About the software: 
Finale (2012) for input
Illustrator only to convert (expand) all text and strokes to path (shapes)
Photoshop – for vintage effect (blurring staff, ink and so on).

Most of the time, people expect that all graphics (mostly slurs) are manipulated in Illustrator.
A.jpg
A.jpg (365.23 KiB) Viewed 3218 times
Certainly not. Here is the "dissection" of this section as shown within another treat.
(may be not in this forum)
B.jpg
B.jpg (374.79 KiB) Viewed 3218 times
Best regards,
Wess

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tisimst
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Re: Fantastic old scores' simulation + fonts

Post by tisimst » 06 Nov 2015, 14:04

wess-music wrote: thank you for your contribution and positivity at my huge work on this Henle-like font.
No question about the quality of your efforts. I know a lot of work can go into these music fonts, but how does Henle feel about this? I think you know that I do fonts too, even some look-a-likes of older styles (even an older Henle one called Beethoven) but I'm a little concerned that they might not like that you are creating a look-a-like font of their "current" style and selling it publicly since it has become their style. I haven't done any detailed comparisons, but how different is it from Henle's standard style? I don't mean to discourage you because it really does look nice. I just don't want you to get into any trouble over it.
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wess-music
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Re: Fantastic old scores' simulation + fonts

Post by wess-music » 07 Nov 2015, 01:31

Dear tisimst,

I have seen your font, of course and analysed it, though I am mostly Finale user.
Talking about your "Beethoven" font and considering that you work on Lilypond, I do respect the convenient way you can insert 75% size mid-G-clef (special shape!), that in Finale of Sibelius must be done manually as an expression or using another trick.

Well, about the style: your brilliant font is also Henle style, isn't it? So, shell we worry about our effort?
The history of engraving is well known – most of the printed music was done at factories, something like outsourcing companies.
The notes even in one and the same edition do not look consistent on every page or number of pages, because of the fact that many different people have worked on them.
This applies to Henle too. You can see many styles of hand work mostly in every large succession of pages – part of sonatas and so on.
As you can agree, no one is capable to occupy the "serif" or "sans serif" method just for himself and to disable all other inventors thus to manifest that it is the only his/her/its style. In addition: there are many so called VST instrument, that replicated pianos like Steinway, Bösendorfer, Yamaha, some vintage synths etc.
All samples, music libraries, are base on real instruments, and they are product of the personal approach of their engineers and dedicated staff. Everyone can write a novel about WW2 and couldn't be blamed that this idea is already found in other book and so on.
Could someone defend the idea that Henle is the one who invented the slanted G-clef?...

And something more – this time about my very personal consideration:
Recently, as far as I am informed, the above mentioned publisher utilises these fonts plus some others for extra proposes and text.
Some of them are Opus111, Henle 1, 2 and 3, MusicFont (MusicXfont) (MusicXfont_stu), 03StempelBogenFett, 8va- - -, BracketsOpus111, Petnotengraphikmaz3 ... etc.
The inventor of the widely used font for note input supposedly is Mr. Michael Zimmermann.
I have no idea if he is kind of relative to Ewald Zimmermann – the head of editorial department at the Duisburg office of Henle.

Looking at his fonts I could say that they are pretty well balanced, though I have never seen the complete tables – just part of public issued samples as PDFs.
I am not going to discus the fonts' "pros" or "cons" but I can definitely say that none of glyphs found in my own Vintage font contains any of them, since I do not work for Henle and have no any touch with them. As I spotted, I can only compare the PDF files found in Henle's site.

About the quality of the s.c. computerised engraving of this publisher – Henle has the only responsibility for the recent layout.
However, last year I ordered for my son some Mozart's piano works and some other classic/romantic music from different composers (Henle piano album or something similar).
Before to do this, I ask the music dealer to insure that they are not engraved on computer otherwise I will not accept any of them.
I hope you've got the picture of my attitude. It is not about the history of Henle. It is about the recent quality control and competence.

Best regards and I am glad that I met you in this forum.
Wess

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John Ruggero
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Re: Fantastic old scores' simulation + fonts

Post by John Ruggero » 07 Nov 2015, 17:18

Perhaps someone is knowledgeable about the current legal issues regarding fonts, engraving, copyright, patent law, and this should become another thread?
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tisimst
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Re: Fantastic old scores' simulation + fonts

Post by tisimst » 07 Nov 2015, 19:40

John Ruggero wrote:Perhaps someone is knowledgeable about the current legal issues regarding fonts, engraving, copyright, patent law, and this should become another thread?
Here's my current understanding about the legality of this issue (and, for the record, I'm not accusing Wess of doing anything illegal): If a person uses the digital data from another's font and claims it for their own, that's illegal. If a person prints out the glyphs on a printed page, scans it back into the computer, and then re-outlines the scanned glyphs, this is NOT illegal--but many question the moral grounds for doing this.

Now, as it pertains to what I brought up, I just know that Wess's designs are quite similar to what Henle uses *now*, that's why I was concerned. The set I outlined is from 50-ish years ago. I don't believe it's being used anymore, though I can't confirm that completely.
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tisimst
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Re: Fantastic old scores' simulation + fonts

Post by tisimst » 07 Nov 2015, 20:10

wess-music wrote: Well, about the style: your brilliant font is also Henle style, isn't it? So, shell we worry about our effort?
It is (as I've said already), but I'd only be concerned if we are dealing with current styles and designs. Historical designs? I don't thank that matters so much.
wess-music wrote: The history of engraving is well known – most of the printed music was done at factories, something like outsourcing companies.
The notes even in one and the same edition do not look consistent on every page or number of pages, because of the fact that many different people have worked on them.
This applies to Henle too. You can see many styles of hand work mostly in every large succession of pages – part of sonatas and so on.
As you can agree, no one is capable to occupy the "serif" or "sans serif" method just for himself and to disable all other inventors thus to manifest that it is the only his/her/its style. In addition: there are many so called VST instrument, that replicated pianos like Steinway, Bösendorfer, Yamaha, some vintage synths etc.
All samples, music libraries, are base on real instruments, and they are product of the personal approach of their engineers and dedicated staff. Everyone can write a novel about WW2 and couldn't be blamed that this idea is already found in other book and so on.
Could someone defend the idea that Henle is the one who invented the slanted G-clef?...
Certainly not! That's not what I'm saying at all. I just don't want you to end up getting caught in a legal battle with them over the design (though, I think it's unlikely that would happen). That's all. Your fonts are beautiful and capture the beauty of scores we know and love.
wess-music wrote: Best regards and I am glad that I met you in this forum.
Wess
As am I! I have heard of your work and I am enjoying reading your messages in these forums.
Music Typeface Designer & Engraver - LilyPond | Sibelius | Finale | MuseScore | Dorico | SMuFL | Inkscape | FontForge
http://www.musictypefoundry.com

chlodomir
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Re: Fantastic old scores' simulation + fonts

Post by chlodomir » 08 May 2017, 22:16

Is there an online shop where these fonts can be purchased?
Best regards.
CH.

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OCTO
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Re: Fantastic old scores' simulation + fonts

Post by OCTO » 09 May 2017, 06:08

I think the best way is to contact Wess directly.
Freelance Composer. Self Publisher.
Finale 2014.5 • Sibelius 7.1.3 • MuseScore 2.3 • Logic Pro X.1 • Ableton Live 9.7 • Digital Performer 9.1 /// OS X Yosemite

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