[puzzle] Slur solutions 1

[OCTO]

Friends, here are some of moments that are pretty difficult to solve.
How would you slur this?
Use any software, but not Illustrator!

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[Knut]

The following would work for me. The first example is done with three separate slurs. It is a bit labor intensive, and I would probably not bother to do this unless I had the time.

The second example is the result of my default settings, a little bit tweaked to avoid the accidental.

Skjermbilde 2016-02-29 kl. 15.39.00.png (74.13 KiB) Viewed 11364 times

[John Ruggero]

Here are the unedited "out of the box" slurs using my new default settings, and then the way I would edit them to improve their appearance. I did not do anything special in editing them; I just moved the handles.

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[tisimst]

Here are the default LilyPond slurs of varying system-widths for these two measures:

notat.io-puzzle1-lilypond.png (44.92 KiB) Viewed 11340 times

[OCTO]

I like mostly Knut's version of slur 1 and John's slur 2. However, Knut uses multiple slurs to achieve this, that makes

Here is my experiment.
What I want to achieve is to minimise white space between middle part of the slur and noteheads, thus creating a compact view.
I think these are very difficult to achieve with one slur in present software. We need more nodes, or ability to add more nodes on the present slurs as an add-on for advanced users (or advanced editing).

puzzle1.jpg (23.27 KiB) Viewed 11338 times

The questions are:
- how long far away should slur tip be from noteheads?
- crossing accidentals in the case of emergency (I think we discussed it earlier)?

[Knut]

I like mostly Knut's version of slur 1 and John's slur 2. However, Knut uses multiple slurs to achieve this, that makes

Here is my experiment.
What I want to achieve is to minimise white space between middle part of the slur and noteheads, thus creating a compact view.
I think these are very difficult to achieve with one slur in present software. We need more nodes, or ability to add more nodes on the present slurs as an add-on for advanced users (or advanced editing).

The questions are:
- how long far away should slur tip be from noteheads?
- crossing accidentals in the case of emergency (I think we discussed it earlier)?

I understand your desire for a eliminating white space, but sometimes this is impossible without compromising the slur shape. It basically comes down to balance and subjective opinion.

John's slur on the first measure is more or less the way I would have done it if I didn't have the time to set up the multi-segmental slur. I see very little difference in John's and my own slur in the second measure, so I think we are basically in agreement.

How far away from the notes the tips of the slur should be depends on the situation. I see no firm answer except as close as possible without compromising slur shape extensively.

I'm in favor of crossing accidentals upon emergency, or if it helps retaining an ideal slur shape and placement. This is highly subjective. However, I don't consider it necessary in the measures you posted.

[John Ruggero]

First, I want to compliment OCTO on this very informative exercise, which is a much better way to get at this issue than my slur experiment file idea.

I agree with OCTO. that Knut's 1 is the best, because he was able to eliminate the extra space and achieve a beautiful shape. However, I don't think that the slur tip need always be very close to the note head and Knut's slur tips might also have been allowed to be further away. To me, a natural shape to the slur is most important (not that Knut does not achieve this.) So to me, a "floating slur" with the tips even somewhat far from the note heads is not a terrible thing.

And OCTO. is so right when he says that engravers need the ability to add control points to slurs, as in other graphics programs. This is a glaring oversight that I first complained about on the MM Forum at least 15 years ago.

I don't think that a slur should EVER cut through an accidental, or anything else, for that matter, except the staff lines. (The only exception I can think of would be when slurs must cross through each other.) I would avoid this at all costs. However, a slur might touch the tip of an accidental in extreme cases. (There is an extensive thread on this at the MM Forum.)

The only difference I see between Knut's 2nd slur and mine, besides the measure width, is the position of the tips. My tips centers on the note heads, while Knut's "include" the note heads. I have always preferred the centered approach, but Finale defaults seem to result in both, depending on the slur shape. I wonder what other members think about this? It is something that I might need to adjust in my slur placement settings.

tismist, would those default slurs be adjustable in LilyPond?

[Knut]

I don't think that a slur should EVER cut through an accidental, or anything else, for that matter, except the staff lines. (The only exception I can think of would be when slurs must cross through each other.) I would avoid this at all costs. However, a slur might touch the tip of an accidental in extreme cases. (There is an extensive thread on this at the MM Forum.)

Here's a typical situation where I think slurs cutting through the accidental is totally appropriate:

Skjermbilde 2016-03-01 kl. 18.11.06.png (39.36 KiB) Viewed 11315 times

In my own experience, most engravers would treat such situations the same way.

The only difference I see between Knut's 2nd slur and mine, besides the measure width, is the position of the tips. My tips centers on the note heads, while Knut's "include" the note heads. I have always preferred the centered approach, but Finale defaults seem to result in both, depending on the slur shape. I wonder what other members think about this? It is something that I might need to adjust in my slur placement settings.

To my eyes, my slur tips are perfectly centered on the noteheads as well. In any event, I didn't mean to place them off centre.

[tisimst]

tisimst, would those default slurs be adjustable in LilyPond?

Most definitely! LilyPond provides numerous mechanisms for customizing the look of ties and slurs, and on multiple levels. It doesn't (yet) support more or less than the four standard control points. Here are some of the ways you can customize the curve shape:

1. Specify the end-points' staff positions and let LP determine how the rest of the curve should be shaped.
2. Specify how each of the control points should be adjusted after the default shape is determined
3. Specify a minimum horizontal length (only used to extend the curve horizontally when the default is too small).
4. Specify how "tall" it can be (emphasis on the can since it is imposed as a limit rather than a fixed requirement).
5. Modify the many optimization parameters so that, for example, the algorithm could care less if the slur passed through an accidental (or vice versa). This kind of update would most likely be used to affect things globally.

For the seriously interested, you can find a list of all the optimization parameters here (for the latest 2.19.X version):
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documenta ... dinterface

[John Ruggero]

Sorry, Knut. I realize now that I have a different definition of centering slur tips than the usual one. What I meant was that if the slur shape were continued on to actually contact the note head, it would touch it in the center.

I should have said that I know that engravers of many generations have been very liberal in allowing slurs to cross accidentals and that I may be a minority of one on this. Your case is the most justifiable one that I can think of, but even in that case, I would prefer it as in your first measure, or as follows, allowing the slur to cross the flat with nothing showing through above. And the size of the accidental could even be reduced a little as shown:

Slur and Accidental.jpg (12.09 KiB) Viewed 11305 times

I guess for me, the accidental and the note are a single unit, and allowing a slur to obviously cross through the accidental would be like allowing it to cross through the note head.

Most of the slurs in my example "include" the note head, only the third and seventh eighths have a slur tip in the "center" according to my definition.