[puzzle] Slur solutions 2

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OCTO
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by OCTO » 04 Mar 2016, 09:49

John Ruggero wrote:So far, only OCTO has manage to accomplish this, and I would love to know how he did it!
Here are my settings:
shot.jpg
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Knut
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by Knut » 04 Mar 2016, 10:06

OCTO wrote:
John Ruggero wrote:So far, only OCTO has manage to accomplish this, and I would love to know how he did it!
Here are my settings:
shot.jpg
Didn't you change any of the placement settings?

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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by OCTO » 04 Mar 2016, 12:28

Here is my document (made from a template I use).
Many settings differ from the standard Default. I have changed it during time (first template was in Finale 2009).
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test slur.musx
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by tisimst » 04 Mar 2016, 17:21

I realize that most of the discussion has been around Finale's settings, but I thought I'd share this if anyone is interested. In LilyPond, to go from the top system to the bottom (i.e., ignoring collisions between slurs and accidentals), it is done by adding the tweak

\override Slur.details.accidental-collision = 0

which basically eliminates the penalty of such collisions from the slur optimization and gives the following:
[puzzle] Slur solutions 2 - LilyPond.png
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by Knut » 04 Mar 2016, 17:32

tisimst wrote:I realize that most of the discussion has been around Finale's settings, but I thought I'd share this if anyone is interested. In LilyPond, to go from the top system to the bottom (i.e., ignoring collisions between slurs and accidentals), it is done by adding the tweak

\override Slur.details.accidental-collision = 0

which basically eliminates the penalty of such collisions from the slur optimization and gives the following:
[puzzle] Slur solutions 2 - LilyPond.png
Thanks, tisimst!

The slur tips are way too thick for me (which, I'm guessing, can easily be adjusted), but apart from that, these examples make it pretty clear just how superior Lilypond's default handling of slurs is to Finale.

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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by John Ruggero » 04 Mar 2016, 17:57

Knut wrote:
I'm sorry, but I guess I don't see why you would want to set up your default settings to fit only a very limited number of cases.
I don't want to change my default settings; I just thought that it would be interesting to see exactly what settings would be necessary for the remaining difficult cases.

OCTO. and Knut seem to have come up with the same answer: -2 vertical spaces (for items 2, 3 and +2 spaces for item 4 in Slur Placement)

I was also interested in the opinion of the members on exactly what shape would be best for case A.

Case A comes up a few times in Beethoven's Violin Sonata op. 30 no. 1, but unflagged. Henle presents the stemming as I have in the puzzle, stubbornly keeping the middle line note stem down. Henle's solution is like OCTO.'s and Knut's: the slur moves in the direction of the notes, which I think is best.

I have not found an example of the flagged case in the Henle. I do prefer Knut's solution in this case, although it seems to me that OCTO.s would be a good compromise in tight situations. I wonder if Knut and maybe OCTO have introduced more space, which makes dealing with this situation easier.

OCTO. would you wish to tell me what the vertical settings for items 2-4 would be in your normal setup? I would like to set up my Slur Experiment File with your exact settings to compare with mine. I did set up a file with the settings from your file and it was interesting to see the results, which were pleasing. It was also interesting to see that some difficult cases were handled better without Engraver Slurs on, but others worse.

tisimst, thanks so much for sharing, I was hoping that there would be LilyPond examples. I agree with Knut in the obvious superiority of the LilyPond defaults. I also agree that the slurs could be more graceful with thinner ending parts. I, of course, would prefer the first line style to the second!
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by tisimst » 04 Mar 2016, 18:17

Knut wrote:Thanks, tisimst!

The slur tips are way too thick for me (which, I'm guessing, can easily be adjusted), but apart from that, these examples make it pretty clear just how superior Lilypond's default handling of slurs is to Finale.
Yes, these are also easily changed with (default values shown):

\override Staff.Slur.thickness = 1.2
\override Staff.Slur.line-thickness = 0.8

The line-thickness property is the diameter of the virtual pen that traces the top and bottom curves that make up ties/slurs. The thickness property is the maximum thickness between the same top and bottom curves (not including the line-thickness). The line-thickness property controls the thickness of the end-points, but the sum of the two properties controls the apparent "thickness" of the tie/slur, here 1.2 + 0.8 = 2.0 which is a multiple of the staff-line-thickness. So, to cut the end-point thickness in half, but keep the same maximum thickness, you'd do something like the following:

\override Staff.Slur.thickness = 1.6
\override Staff.Slur.line-thickness = 0.4

so we get the same staff-line-thickness multiple of 1.6 + 0.4 = 2.0. Here's that those change look like:
LilyPond-sharpening-slurs.png
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by Knut » 04 Mar 2016, 18:27

John Ruggero wrote:I wonder if Knut and maybe OCTO have introduced more space, which makes dealing with this situation easier.
I used my default scaling factor of 1.414. Apart from that, my font is a bit more space effective than Maestro, which might contribute slightly to this impression.

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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by Knut » 04 Mar 2016, 18:34

tisimst wrote:
Knut wrote:Thanks, tisimst!

The slur tips are way too thick for me (which, I'm guessing, can easily be adjusted), but apart from that, these examples make it pretty clear just how superior Lilypond's default handling of slurs is to Finale.
Yes, these are also easily changed with (default values shown):

\override Staff.Slur.thickness = 1.2
\override Staff.Slur.line-thickness = 0.8

The line-thickness property is the diameter of the virtual pen that traces the top and bottom curves that make up ties/slurs. The thickness property is the maximum thickness between the same top and bottom curves (not including the line-thickness). The line-thickness property controls the thickness of the end-points, but the sum of the two properties controls the apparent "thickness" of the tie/slur, here 1.2 + 0.8 = 2.0 which is a multiple of the staff-line-thickness. So, to cut the end-point thickness in half, but keep the same maximum thickness, you'd do something like the following:

\override Staff.Slur.thickness = 1.6
\override Staff.Slur.line-thickness = 0.4

so we get the same staff-line-thickness multiple of 1.6 + 0.4 = 2.0. Here's that those change look like:
LilyPond-sharpening-slurs.png
Thanks,

Seeing these, I'm actually considering increasing the thickness of my slur and tie tips slightly. On short and medium lengths, I think my settings are fine, but for longer slurs, they tend to become too thin. This is particularly easy to see from the second slur in my post on the first slur problem.

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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by OCTO » 04 Mar 2016, 19:20

John Ruggero wrote:OCTO. would you wish to tell me what the vertical settings for items 2-4 would be in your normal setup?
I am unsure what your question is here... :(
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