[puzzle] Slur solutions 2

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John Ruggero
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by John Ruggero » 04 Mar 2016, 20:36

Sorry, OCTO. I thought that your file had special settings for Slur Placement items 2, 3 and 4 to create your answer to the puzzle. If so, I am wondering what the corresponding settings actually are in your regular default file.
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by DatOrganistTho » 06 Mar 2016, 05:23

+1 For LilyPond making it beautiful both times!

This may be a question for a different forum, but I'm actually quite fond of blunt tips on the slurs. I guess I've played from enough Finale scores to be sick of the infinitesimally-thin endings which leave me feeling anemic and much to be desired. What's a good reason not to have generally thicker and more blunt ends on slurs (and "I don't like the way they look" is not a good reason)?
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by John Ruggero » 06 Mar 2016, 16:46

I also like a definite ending for slurs and have my slur tips set to .05 spaces which is a little thicker than the 1 EVPU sometimes suggested. And it could certainly be thicker still.

However, as the tip becomes thicker so does the rest of the ending part of the slur, which might lead to a very thick overall slur. I prefer a graceful and not too thick slur with well=balanced thick and thin sections. It is for this reason that I prefer computer-generated slurs, because they are generally thinner than hand-engraved ones. So while it does come down to my personal preference, there is some logic behind it.
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OCTO
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by OCTO » 07 Mar 2016, 12:56

John Ruggero wrote:Sorry, OCTO. I thought that your file had special settings for Slur Placement items 2, 3 and 4 to create your answer to the puzzle. If so, I am wondering what the corresponding settings actually are in your regular default file.
I have edited these settings but a while ago (some years).
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I think it is best way to start with the default Finale file, enter slurs, and than edit settings without moving slurs manually, just by editing settings.

[EDIT: Sorry for inches, this is another Finale computer!]
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by John Ruggero » 07 Mar 2016, 23:33

Thanks so much, OCTO. I will work with those settings. I am assuming that the other settings in your puzzle file were you normal default settings.
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by DatOrganistTho » 08 Mar 2016, 01:53

John Ruggero wrote:I also like a definite ending for slurs and have my slur tips set to .05 spaces which is a little thicker than the 1 EVPU sometimes suggested. And it could certainly be thicker still.

However, as the tip becomes thicker so does the rest of the ending part of the slur, which might lead to a very thick overall slur. I prefer a graceful and not too thick slur with well=balanced thick and thin sections. It is for this reason that I prefer computer-generated slurs, because they are generally thinner than hand-engraved ones. So while it does come down to my personal preference, there is some logic behind it.
I see mostly what you are saying.

It still is left to be answered my original question: What is so bad about thicker endings in the first place.

I think of finale slurs as I do Modernist typefaces -- extraordinary contrast and thin terminals which makes for a difficult reading experience. Generally speaking, Old-style and transitional fonts are regarded as the most legible (with their counterparts to be debated in sans style). Why would we say otherwise about slurs?
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by John Ruggero » 08 Mar 2016, 14:14

DatOrganistTho wrote:
It still is left to be answered my original question: What is so bad about thicker endings in the first place
Sorry I didn't answer you clearly. IMO there is nothing "bad" about thicker endings. Thicker endings mean thicker slurs in general. If someone prefers thicker slurs, then thicker endings are in order. However, the slur should have a nice thin-thick-thin balance or it looks more like a sausage rather than an something artfully drawn on the page.
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by DatOrganistTho » 09 Mar 2016, 02:59

However, the slur should have a nice thin-thick-thin balance or it looks more like a sausage rather than an something artfully drawn on the page.
I'm asking a legitimate question here:

So old fashioned scores and their engravings are inferior because they look like sausages (the natural result of plate engraving)?
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by John Ruggero » 09 Mar 2016, 04:05

DatOrganistTho wrote:
So old fashioned scores and their engravings are inferior because they look like sausages (the natural result of plate engraving)?
No, well-done hand engraved slurs do not look like sausages because good balance between thick and thin is maintained. I think that the slurs in Henle hand-engraved scores, for example, maintain beautiful thick and thin balance.

Here is an example from the past that I think has many beautifully hand-engraved slurs that are on the thicker side but never appear inartistic. Of course, there are also imperfections because of the nature of hand work, but the overall impression is warm and delightful to the eye, which is so typical of the Brahms Complete Edition:

http://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnk ... 4_scan.pdf
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Re: [puzzle] Slur solutions 2

Post by Knut » 09 Mar 2016, 12:30

John is right.

As I see it, there are two main problems when trying to simulate plate engraved slurs in a scoring application:

1. Generally, plate engraved slurs vary in thickness (shorter slurs are thinner than longer slurs), and this variable is impossible to recreate in most scoring apps without some kind of post production tool.

2. Plate engraved slurs have round tips, which allow the ends to be somewhat thicker without being perceived as 'sausagy'.

I'm currently experimenting with slur tips between 0.06 and 0.08 spaces (1.5 – 2.0 EVPU). 0.08 spaces is closer to the relative thickness used in plate engraved scores, as it is the same as the thickness of my stems. However, the resulting abrupt end points becomes very visible on screen, and it therefore seems too thick to me. I'll have to do some print outs and see how it looks on paper.

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