[puzzle] Two voices in one staff

For those who need help with notation issues. (Please use the other available forums for help with software issues.)
User avatar
tisimst
Posts: 295
Joined: 08 Oct 2015, 17:57
Location: UT, USA
Contact:

Re: [puzzle] Two voices in one staff

Post by tisimst » 02 Jun 2016, 01:11

John Ruggero wrote:Now that I actually understand what is wanted, here is my corrected version.
FWIW, here's the default LilyPond output:
[puzzle] Two voices in one staff - LilyPond default.png
[puzzle] Two voices in one staff - LilyPond default.png (49.41 KiB) Viewed 3003 times
I think it does a good job--plenty legible (at least to me)--but I think I have to give my vote to John this time for creating the absolute minimum collisions.

Nicely done, John!
Music Typeface Designer & Engraver - LilyPond | Sibelius | Finale | MuseScore | Dorico | SMuFL | Inkscape | FontForge
http://www.musictypefoundry.com

Knut
Posts: 867
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:07
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: [puzzle] Two voices in one staff

Post by Knut » 02 Jun 2016, 08:59

I don't see how the last two examples are better than breaking the tie for the notehead to avoid as much as the music as possible.
To my eyes, a tie should never obscure the main parts of any accidental. Only the stems is acceptable to cut through, even in extreme cases. But it's even more problematic to me when the tie touches a notehead, as it appears to do in both these examples.

I don't personally think there is any ambiguity with OCTO's solution in this case.. The last note in voice 1 could perhaps be pushed a little more to the right, though, making it even clearer which note the tie applies to.

User avatar
David Ward
Posts: 226
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 19:50
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Contact:

Re: [puzzle] Two voices in one staff

Post by David Ward » 02 Jun 2016, 10:16

+1 for OCTO's, which I find easiest to read.
Finale 25.5
Mac OS 10.12.6 & 10.13.6
http://www.composers-uk.com/davidward/news.htm

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1252
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: [puzzle] Two voices in one staff

Post by John Ruggero » 02 Jun 2016, 11:47

Thanks so much, tisimst. The Finale default with my adjusted settings actually produces a result similar to LilyPond but the tie is a little lower and runs more into the sharp, but less into the note head.

I must respectfully disagree with my colleagues who feel that the ends of the tie may lead toward the stems rather than the note heads and the tie may cover the other notes. I don't think that I have ever seen this in print and feel that it is non-standard; but, of course, I may be mistaken. I will do some looking through the literature and see if I can find an example of this situation and its solution.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

erelievonen
Posts: 96
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 16:12
Contact:

Re: [puzzle] Two voices in one staff

Post by erelievonen » 02 Jun 2016, 12:55

Here is another kind of solution.
tie_puzzle_1.png
tie_puzzle_1.png (31.83 KiB) Viewed 2983 times

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1252
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: [puzzle] Two voices in one staff

Post by John Ruggero » 02 Jun 2016, 14:14

Here is a somewhat similar situation from Liszt's piano solo arrangement of Beethoven's Symphony no. 3. It is from the Breitkopf Complete Works of Liszt. I will keep looking for something that includes accidentals. But in this case, I find the tie crossing in among the ledger lines much more disturbing than cutting through a sharp, yet not disturbing enough to be of great concern since it is clear that the melody is moving in octaves.
Example .jpg
Example .jpg (29.4 KiB) Viewed 2978 times
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1252
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: [puzzle] Two voices in one staff

Post by John Ruggero » 02 Jun 2016, 14:23

erelievonen's solution satisfies the tie end-to-note head "requirement", yet still seems to slur-like and is not visually pleasing, at least to me, and I think that some engraver's might not use it for that reason.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

Knut
Posts: 867
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:07
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: [puzzle] Two voices in one staff

Post by Knut » 02 Jun 2016, 14:26

I agree that ties intersecting with ledger lines can indeed be disturbing (although I wouldn't personally put this above the effect of ties cutting through the main parts of accidentals), which is why Elaine Gould recommends to break a tie that would otherwise intersect with them.

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1252
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: [puzzle] Two voices in one staff

Post by John Ruggero » 02 Jun 2016, 18:46

Knut, I believe that your solution with the broken ties is excellent, and some might feel it superior to one that does not break the tie. However, there is also visual dissonance in breaking ties and slurs, and in this case I don't feel that it is necessary in spite of my great distaste for lines intersecting with accidentals. But it is a close call.

For me, a tie among ledger lines obscures the pitch of the note, while one through an accidental would rarely do that.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1056
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: [puzzle] Two voices in one staff

Post by OCTO » 02 Jun 2016, 19:00

John Ruggero wrote:erelievonen's solution satisfies the tie end-to-note head "requirement", yet still seems to slur-like and is not visually pleasing, at least to me, and I think that some engraver's might not use it for that reason.
I agree. Somehow flattened tie could result in a more "tie" looking curve.

Post Reply