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Re: [puzzle] A Breve Problem

Posted: 16 Jun 2016, 05:40
by Knut
OCTO wrote:Actually I see this as a problem in the voice leading. IF the voice with was previous in the upper staff, it can't be moved down.
I totally agree with that, and as I said, my alternate proposal is dependent on the layer distribution (i.e., the voice leading not being fixed.
OCTO wrote:I would though avoid aligning :5 stem with :7 for better legibility.
If so, the :5 notehead would need to be shifted entirely to the left of the breves, which would result in exactly the same spacing problem as in the original example.

Re: [puzzle] A Breve Problem

Posted: 16 Jun 2016, 11:59
by John Ruggero
Shouldn't there be either a sharp or a precautionary natural before the first F in the top staff? That would have impact on the spacing in some versions.

Whether there should be a precautionary natural before the E in the top staff is a question that also came up in the Brahms op 119 no 1 thread.

Re: [puzzle] A Breve Problem

Posted: 16 Jun 2016, 12:10
by Knut
John Ruggero wrote:Shouldn't there be either a sharp or a precautionary natural before the first F in the top staff? That would have impact on the spacing in some versions.

Whether there should be a precautionary natural before the E in the top staff is a question that also came up in the Brahms op 119 no 1 thread.
An accidental on the r.h. F shouldn't influence the spacing, as it should be correctly placed to the left of the breve column.
A natural on the r.h. E would influence the top staff spacing in those versions where no space has been added to the first beat, to compensate for the offset half note, however.

Re: [puzzle] A Breve Problem

Posted: 16 Jun 2016, 16:01
by DatOrganistTho
Fellas, here's the context.

Re: [puzzle] A Breve Problem

Posted: 16 Jun 2016, 16:02
by DatOrganistTho
Knut wrote:If your layer distribution isn't fixed, I would consider flipping the stems of the r.h. half notes, which would make the spacing of the layers more even, without the risk of collisions. I'm actually not entirely sure that the result would constitute an acceptable note alignment, but it looks OK to me:

Skjermbilde 2016-06-16 kl. 06.55.00.png
I'm not convinced that this is a good solution, because of the collision of the RH voices. Care to give a more scrupulous justification?

Re: [puzzle] A Breve Problem

Posted: 16 Jun 2016, 16:06
by DatOrganistTho
John Ruggero wrote:Shouldn't there be either a sharp or a precautionary natural before the first F in the top staff? That would have impact on the spacing in some versions.

Whether there should be a precautionary natural before the E in the top staff is a question that also came up in the Brahms op 119 no 1 thread.
John,

Please see the context I posted earlier.

Re: [puzzle] A Breve Problem

Posted: 16 Jun 2016, 18:14
by Knut
DatOrganistTho wrote:
Knut wrote:If your layer distribution isn't fixed, I would consider flipping the stems of the r.h. half notes, which would make the spacing of the layers more even, without the risk of collisions. I'm actually not entirely sure that the result would constitute an acceptable note alignment, but it looks OK to me:

Skjermbilde 2016-06-16 kl. 06.55.00.png
I'm not convinced that this is a good solution, because of the collision of the RH voices. Care to give a more scrupulous justification?
Neither am I, but while you lose some legibility in the first r.h. chord, you gain a better overall spacing and articulation placement.

The breve character in OCTOs example is better suited to avoid collisions with other notes, since the vertical bars don't extend beyond the notehead. This allows some distance between the breves and the half note stem, without having to disconnect the half note from the rest of the chord entirely. Perhaps changing the font for this particular character is an option?

Re: [puzzle] A Breve Problem

Posted: 16 Jun 2016, 20:53
by John Ruggero
OCTO wrote:
Actually I see this as a problem in the voice leading.
The larger except shows that the accented voice in half notes is a middle voice, and for this reason I vote for Knut's solution with the downward stems since it is very common for a moving middle voice to have down stems in an upper staff even if there is a collective down or up stem preceeding.

It does seem strange to me for one voice to have a courtesy accidental and the other not if they are doubling each other in octaves, but this is apparently debatable, since a contrary opinion occurs as a similar case in Brahms op 119 no 1 m. 17 in the 1st and other editions.

Re: [puzzle] A Breve Problem

Posted: 16 Jun 2016, 21:43
by Knut
John Ruggero wrote: The larger except shows that the accented voice in half notes is a middle voice, and for this reason I vote for Knut's solution with the downward stems since it is very common for a moving middle voice to have down stems in an upper staff even if there is a collective down or up stem preceeding.
Thanks for the support, John.

It might also be worth considering something like this:
Skjermbilde 2016-06-16 kl. 23.36.25.png
Rather unorthodox, but it works, and it is pretty easily done in any vector graphics editor.

Re: [puzzle] A Breve Problem

Posted: 17 Jun 2016, 00:59
by DatOrganistTho
Knut wrote:
John Ruggero wrote: The larger except shows that the accented voice in half notes is a middle voice, and for this reason I vote for Knut's solution with the downward stems since it is very common for a moving middle voice to have down stems in an upper staff even if there is a collective down or up stem preceeding.
Thanks for the support, John.

It might also be worth considering something like this:

Skjermbilde 2016-06-16 kl. 23.36.25.png

Rather unorthodox, but it works, and it is pretty easily done in any vector graphics editor.
Thanks Knut but I prefer not to do this via vector. I'm trying to find a solution that allows me to log it away in the source file.