Positioning of objects

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OCTO
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Positioning of objects

Post by OCTO » 10 Feb 2017, 05:53

Friends, how to avoid clutter here? It seems for me that music information is in a way collapsing...
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David Ward
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Re: Positioning of objects

Post by David Ward » 10 Feb 2017, 08:04

At the least I'd probably make the ‘sul pont.’ opaque and move it to the left and lower (and thus also be able to lower the ‘ord.’ and the arrow). I'm not sure what else to suggest, nor whether or not that would help with the clutter.

Otherwise, I suppose you might write out the double mordent (I'm assuming that's what it is?). That would certainly reduce clutter above the stave, but…
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OCTO
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Re: Positioning of objects

Post by OCTO » 10 Feb 2017, 14:32

Thank you David, your first solution is preferable.
I might use another approach, maybe placing sul pont. below the staff. That is not ideal at all. I will test it.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Positioning of objects

Post by John Ruggero » 10 Feb 2017, 16:43

An interesting spot. The following occurs to me:

1. The arrow is self-explanatory, but maybe a dashed line with arrow head would be less obtrusive?
2. The the trill symbol as well as the small natural should be centered over the note head.
3. If you have an exact trill in mind, it would be better to write it out, as suggested by David. Many players will be tempted to ask you a question about it if symbolized.
4. The PPP and F are too far to the left.
5. Is the ten. really necessary?
6. Is that an accent or a small hairpin after the ten.? I have no idea what it means; but then I am not a violist. If it is a misplaced accent, moving it under the note head would help a lot. If it is a dim. then it should come from the F, not the ten.

It is interesting, David, that you called the ornament a mordent. There was just an extended discussion of this nomenclature at Dorico forum. Apparently there has been a tendency for trills shown by a squiggle to be called mordents in Britain. This has even made its way into Finale. But the mordent as defined in the Baroque and in all standard reference works is a squiggle with a line through it. This is a completely different ornament from the trill as symbolized by squiggles of various lengths.
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OCTO
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Re: Positioning of objects

Post by OCTO » 10 Feb 2017, 19:39

Thanks for your suggestions John.
The mordent is upper, double. I have these many; so I prefer, to save space and get clearer score, to use these instead of written graces. I struggle with graces in Finale.
And yes, that is a short diminuendo. I should definitely use another symbol, more hairpin looking than accent.
For positioning of other object - you are completely correct! That must be adjusted.
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David Ward
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Re: Positioning of objects

Post by David Ward » 10 Feb 2017, 20:29

John Ruggero wrote:
10 Feb 2017, 16:43
It is interesting, David, that you called the ornament a mordent. There was just an extended discussion of this nomenclature at Dorico forum. Apparently there has been a tendency for trills shown by a squiggle to be called mordents in Britain. This has even made its way into Finale. But the mordent as defined in the Baroque and in all standard reference works a squiggle with a line through it. This is a completely different ornament from the trill as symbolized by squiggles of various lengths.
I've long understood that with the line through it a mordent was down and without the line it was up. I'm not sure how much authority one should accept from Wikipedia on such a subject, but this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordent does seem to support my understanding of the modern terminology. Without other guidance, I would sight-read OCTO's up mordent as double, rather than single, because of its extra squiggle.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Positioning of objects

Post by John Ruggero » 11 Feb 2017, 04:18

Thanks, David. I did some more research and learned that the nomenclature was confused even during the Baroque period.

In the keyboard world over here, my sense is that we adhere to J. S. and C. P. E. Bach's nomenclature: the "mordent" (the squiggle with the line through it) uses the lower auxiliary, generally chromatic. The "short trill", "schneller" "snap", "pralltriller or "inverted mordent" (squiggle without the line) uses the upper auxiliary, generally diatonic. At least, those are the definitions I read in standard reference works like Grove's Dictionary, Harvard Dictionary of Music etc.

What also makes this nomenclature convincing to me is that the plain squiggle is often just an alternate for tr (with or without a squiggle continuation) and a trill is a trill.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Positioning of objects

Post by John Ruggero » 11 Feb 2017, 04:27

OCTO., you are very welcome. A question about the trill symbol: I thought it confuses non-keyboard players. Is that incorrect?
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benwiggy
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Re: Positioning of objects

Post by benwiggy » 11 Feb 2017, 12:21

Here's the recent discussion on the Dorico forum about the whether the app correctly named the mordent and inverted mordent, etc:

https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewto ... 6&t=108994

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Fred G. Unn
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Re: Positioning of objects

Post by Fred G. Unn » 14 Feb 2017, 03:08

Just to clarify, the natural is just a cautionary accidental in this case, right? The performer would play the upper note diatonically anyway if nothing was notated, correct? Coming from an E in the previous measure, an E# would be somewhat less common I suppose (and D#-Eb obviously not possible), unless previously encountered by the performer, or if all previous instances were whole steps.

I of course have no idea what comes prior, but is it possible to remove the natural here? Or is it necessary for clarity?

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