LilyPond/Denemo or Sibelius?

Recommendations concerning notation and publishing software in a non-partisan environment.
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jrethorst
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Joined: 09 Apr 2016, 18:48

LilyPond/Denemo or Sibelius?

Post by jrethorst »

I'm considering switching to another notation program and it seems it would be one of these two. I've walked through LilyPond/Denemo and the Sibelius demo and they look okay, but I dread taking the at least three weeks to really learn each one.

If I went with LilyPond I'd have to use it through Denemo because, although I've done programming I'm much more a GUI kind of guy. But touch screen such as Sibelius offers is not interesting; a mouse is fine. I see the price difference but it's just one program and I'd use it a lot for a long time. I'm interested in notation only, no sequencer or DAW features, but I sure like quality in engraving.

I've read every post I can find here about these programs -- interesting that a search for the one word "LilyPond" is refused by this forum's software since the word is too common!

I know part of the choice is personal preference as regards interface, but can anyone suggest other advantages to one or the other? I would be grateful for any thoughts you have.

Thanks very much,
John
DatOrganistTho
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Joined: 19 Jan 2016, 17:30

Re: LilyPond/Denemo or Sibelius?

Post by DatOrganistTho »

jrethorst wrote:I'm considering switching to another notation program and it seems it would be one of these two. I've walked through LilyPond/Denemo and the Sibelius demo and they look okay, but I dread taking the at least three weeks to really learn each one.

If I went with LilyPond I'd have to use it through Denemo because, although I've done programming I'm much more a GUI kind of guy. But touch screen such as Sibelius offers is not interesting; a mouse is fine. I see the price difference but it's just one program and I'd use it a lot for a long time. I'm interested in notation only, no sequencer or DAW features, but I sure like quality in engraving.

I've read every post I can find here about these programs -- interesting that a search for the one word "LilyPond" is refused by this forum's software since the word is too common!

I know part of the choice is personal preference as regards interface, but can anyone suggest other advantages to one or the other? I would be grateful for any thoughts you have.

Thanks very much,
John
Often these things take complementary positives/negatives. The real joy with LilyPond can often lead to one of its hassles.

Denemo focuses on the GUI side of notation, which often leads to a lack of understanding in the LilyPond source file, one that can become a hindrance if you are trying to do more than basic notation.

As with any "drag and drop" program like Sibelius etc, the ability to control every aspect of the page often leads to needing to control every aspect of the page. So, often it leads to sloppier notational standards and thus your eye game will have to step up quite a bit to compensate. This often isn't a complaint by those already using these sorts of programs until they switch to something like LilyPond.

LilyPond's power often falters in the tweak side of things. If you want to use it with a custom style sheet by your manager or engraving house, you will need to learn how to tweak all of the internals and outputs, which can become time consuming. Also, using different fonts will often lead to you needing to create your own font, or have someone else maintain a font for you.

I personally, though, find myself coming back to LilyPond because it makes good decisions almost all the time. Tweaking is a matter of personal taste or a necessary house style, of which it is easy to deal with at that point.

All of this, however, is worth what you paid for it, so take it or leave it. ;)
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John Ruggero
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Re: LilyPond/Denemo or Sibelius?

Post by John Ruggero »

Maybe you should wait for Dorico, which is promised for the last quarter of this year?
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
jrethorst
Posts: 122
Joined: 09 Apr 2016, 18:48

Re: LilyPond/Denemo or Sibelius?

Post by jrethorst »

I thought of that. Version 1.0 will apparently miss some features but they'll be forthcoming, and anyone's v. 1 will have a bug or two but that will be fixed as well. It will probably need a later version of the Mac OS than what I run but I'm going to have to upgrade at some point anyway.

But it's astonishing how much company I would have. The engraving world seems to be waiting with bated breath for Dorico. How can so many people be so unhappy with F and S?
John Rethorst
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OCTO
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Re: LilyPond/Denemo or Sibelius?

Post by OCTO »

John Rethorst (well, we have now two Johns, and both are John R.), I am seriously thinking to switch to MuseScore - maybe you should check this one. It seems they are developing it very actively. You could perhaps also contribute if you want, and if they want.
As a very long-time Finale user (and very experienced as well, particularly for complex contemporary stuff), I find MuseScore quite attractive. Some things, I think, are not well developed particularly for big and complex orchestral scores, but I see it will change soon in the next version.

The biggest problem of MuseScore is its amateur and non-professional community, and amazing amount of scores done in MuseScore which one could barely call music or engraving. You will face a problem and than you will discover that something so obvious in engraving standards will take time to discuss clearly with program designers who don't understand the notation.

Maybe this forum would be a good way to discuss MuseScore (or other software) at a satisfying high level.

When I get time I will do more in MuseScore. The only problem are my deadlines: I don't engrave my scores anymore, and I don't see any quality MuseScore engravers on the road.
jrethorst wrote:I've read every post I can find here about these programs -- interesting that a search for the one word "LilyPond" is refused by this forum's software since the word is too common!
Type this in Google:

Code: Select all

LilyPond site:notat.io
jrethorst wrote:How can so many people be so unhappy with F and S?
I think nobody can clearly see what is the direction to where Finale or Sibelius are developing.
With LilyPond or MuseScore you can have it the most without costs. And you can run on many different platforms as well.

Finally, good scores are done only by good engravers.
jrethorst
Posts: 122
Joined: 09 Apr 2016, 18:48

Re: LilyPond/Denemo or Sibelius?

Post by jrethorst »

DatOrganistTho wrote:All of this, however, is worth what you paid for it, so take it or leave it. ;)
Your thoughtful comments are worth a great deal more than what I paid for them! Thank you.

This is a nice forum.
John Rethorst
DatOrganistTho
Posts: 192
Joined: 19 Jan 2016, 17:30

Re: LilyPond/Denemo or Sibelius?

Post by DatOrganistTho »

OCTO wrote:John Rethorst (well, we have now two Johns, and both are John R.), I am seriously thinking to switch to MuseScore - maybe you should check this one. It seems they are developing it very actively. You could perhaps also contribute if you want, and if they want.
As a very long-time Finale user (and very experienced as well, particularly for complex contemporary stuff), I find MuseScore quite attractive. Some things, I think, are not well developed particularly for big and complex orchestral scores, but I see it will change soon in the next version.

The biggest problem of MuseScore is its amateur and non-professional community, and amazing amount of scores done in MuseScore which one could barely call music or engraving. You will face a problem and than you will discover that something so obvious in engraving standards will take time to discuss clearly with program designers who don't understand the notation.

Maybe this forum would be a good way to discuss MuseScore (or other software) at a satisfying high level.

When I get time I will do more in MuseScore. The only problem are my deadlines: I don't engrave my scores anymore, and I don't see any quality MuseScore engravers on the road.
jrethorst wrote:I've read every post I can find here about these programs -- interesting that a search for the one word "LilyPond" is refused by this forum's software since the word is too common!
Type this in Google:

Code: Select all

LilyPond site:notat.io
jrethorst wrote:How can so many people be so unhappy with F and S?
I think nobody can clearly see what is the direction to where Finale or Sibelius are developing.
With LilyPond or MuseScore you can have it the most without costs. And you can run on many different platforms as well.

Finally, good scores are done only by good engravers.
This is encouraging coming from someone who is as concerned about composition as engraving. This is a great example of someone who is professional in their discourse that can validate an open-source project like this.
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John Ruggero
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Re: LilyPond/Denemo or Sibelius?

Post by John Ruggero »

I was also quite interested in MuseScore, and might be again in the future. However, after a few interactions, I didn't feel that the MuseScore community was completely open to comments or ideas from "outsiders", so I lost my interest.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
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