Dorico

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Knut
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Re: Dorico

Post by Knut » 21 Oct 2016, 18:12

John Ruggero wrote:Just so that I understand your style more clearly:

In measure 1 of your Dorico example, would you override the standard position of the first rest so that it can be closer to the note G that follows, even though both of the other notes are off the staff and there is no other pressing reason to move the rest?
No. As you said, both outer voices are in fact outside the staff, which speaks to centering the rest. Additionally, the proximity to the following note is close enough when placing the rest in the centre, which also results in the least vertical movement.

If, however, the following bars had one of the voices slightly inside the staff and movement of the inner voice resulting in a natural rest placement consistently one step below the note following it, I would probably follow this pattern, even in a measure with both outer voices outside the staff.

My point in disagreeing with your statement that Dorico's placement of the initial middle rest was 'incorrect' was simply to say that there could be differing opinions, and that these are the kind of situations where an application that tries to follow a complex set of rules sometimes may have trouble finding the best possible placement. I agree with you that there are numerous cases of less than ideal rest placement in the Dorico example, and I would expect these to improve as the program matures, but it's already a lot better than the competition, at least compared to Finale and Sibelius.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Dorico

Post by John Ruggero » 21 Oct 2016, 19:15

Knut wrote:If, however, the following bars had one of the voices slightly inside the staff and movement of the inner voice resulting in a natural rest placement consistently one step below the note following it, I would probably follow this pattern, even in a measure with both outer voices outside the staff.
I might react in the same way to the situation you describe, depending on circumstances. However, in the case of measure 1 of your Dorico example, even context—the placement of the rest in the next measure—would dictate a standard position for the first measure. So I see no way in which there could be a differing opinion on this one, unless there is a rule in effect that is quite different from what I am accustomed to seeing in standard literature. I suspect that Dorico is following such a rule, although imperfectly. It is very important that Dorico use rules that produce standard results, or give users various options, because if one has to to edit, "close" doesn't really help.
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Knut
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Re: Dorico

Post by Knut » 21 Oct 2016, 20:10

John Ruggero wrote: I suspect that Dorico is following such a rule, although imperfectly. It is very important that Dorico use rules that produce standard results, or give users various options, because if one has to to edit, "close" doesn't really help.
I think decent and, after all, readable results like these are far better than the often unreadable results Finale produces with regard to rest placement. Personally, I find that it is always easier and more pleasant to edit something close to correct than that which is totally out of whack, but I certainly agree that Dorico should be able to produce even better results.

I'm not entirely sure how to bring this to Daniel's attention, so long as there doesn't seem to be a consensus about the underlying principles to follow, though. Maybe it's best just to send him a link to this thread?

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John Ruggero
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Re: Dorico

Post by John Ruggero » 21 Oct 2016, 20:15

RMK wrote:Yes, as far as I can remember. Sibelius 1 appeared (in the US) in the mid-90's.
Which was in answer to my query:" But was it possible to move notes independently of the others in the earlier versions of Sibelius by typing numbers?"

Thanks for the information, RMK.
Last edited by John Ruggero on 21 Oct 2016, 22:00, edited 1 time in total.
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John Ruggero
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Re: Dorico

Post by John Ruggero » 21 Oct 2016, 20:24

Knut wrote: think decent and, after all, readable results like these are far better than the often unreadable results Finale produces with regard to rest placement. Personally, I find that it is always easier and more pleasant to edit something close to correct than that which is totally out of whack, but I certainly agree that Dorico should be able to produce even better results.
You're right on both counts. Dorico's results are obviously far better than Finale's and that certainly has great value. I think that I might be over-reacting to the editing side of Dorico, which sounds unpleasant.
Knut wrote:I'm not entirely sure how to bring this to Daniel's attention, so long as there doesn't seem to be a consensus about the underlying principles to follow, though. Maybe it's best just to send him a link to this thread?
Maybe we should wait, given the current circumstances? On the other hand, he might be looking this over as we write. ;)
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Knut
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Re: Dorico

Post by Knut » 21 Oct 2016, 20:37

John Ruggero wrote:
You're right on both counts. Dorico's results are obviously far better than Finale's and that certainly has great value. I think that I might be over-reacting to the editing side of Dorico, which sounds unpleasant.
Moving rests in Dorico is exactly like moving them in Finale's simple entry.
John Ruggero wrote:Maybe we should wait, given the current circumstances? On the other hand, he might be looking this over as we write. ;)
I concur.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Dorico

Post by John Ruggero » 21 Oct 2016, 21:01

Knut wrote:Moving rests in Dorico is exactly like moving them in Finale's simple entry.
Ah, no Properties Panel! Simple enough. (I usually use Speedy for editing: I do hate those arrow keys!).
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Knut
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Re: Dorico

Post by Knut » 22 Oct 2016, 16:09

Correction: I don't know what prompted me to say you didn't, but presently you indeed have to adjust the position of rest via the properties panel. Things like beams, slurs and hairpins can be adjusted by dragging, though.

I've already given Daniel feedback with regard to the barriers of the properties panel for manual editing, In response, he made it clear that he was aware of this, so I'll bet that easier ways to edit these things directly in the score is something they're already trying to achieve.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Dorico

Post by John Ruggero » 22 Oct 2016, 20:03

Thanks for the correction, Knut. That d----- Properties Panel! I hate it already, and I haven't even experienced the program yet!
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jrethorst
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Re: Dorico

Post by jrethorst » 23 Oct 2016, 04:58

My apologies if my post was confusing or inaccurate, about moving notes horizontally in Sibelius. I don't know the program (although I explored it pretty well in version 2, most of which I've forgotten), but got the impression that the feature was only added in v. 8 from Philip Rothman's blog:

http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/sibelius-8-2-released/
John Rethorst

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