Dorico Finale Side by Side

Recommendations concerning notation and publishing software in a non-partisan environment.
mducharme
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Re: Dorico Finale Side by Side

Post by mducharme » 22 Dec 2016, 01:58

I believe that is the default SIbelius style, which is what I typically use.

jrethorst
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Re: Dorico Finale Side by Side

Post by jrethorst » 22 Dec 2016, 07:29

Another comparison of Dorico and Finale, and eight other notation programs, is at:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/643 ... ograms.pdf

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Knut
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Re: Dorico Finale Side by Side

Post by Knut » 22 Dec 2016, 12:12

I would have to disagree that Finale's default output is better than Dorico's. While both are in need of adjustments, Finale's issues with slur curves and directions, stem lengths, beam angles and line thicknesses are much more glaring to me than the weaknesses of the Dorico example. Also, since I know how much control I have over Dorico's automatic behavior via it's engraving, notation and layout options, I'm sure it's able to come a lot closer to the ideal result without any manual intervention than what Finale can, even with the most clever of settings.

I do however completely agree with the objections to Dorico's slur shapes. Finale's defaults are ugly in their own right, but can easily be made to surpass the dorico defaults. And even though Dorico surpasses Finale with regard to control over finer points in placement and curvature, the core shape of the Dorico slurs, which aren't evenly tapered all the way to the end points and therefore can produce rather ugly results, especially for sharper curves, seems impossible to improve upon significantly. This is quickly becoming my number one issue with Dorico, simply because there is no way around it. I am surprised that this issue (to my knowledge) has yet to be raised on the Dorico forum, Although it may be because so many of their users have been accustomed to the Sibelius slurs, which aren't much better.

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odod
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Re: Dorico Finale Side by Side

Post by odod » 22 Dec 2016, 14:38

Knut wrote:I would have to disagree that Finale's default output is better than Dorico's. While both are in need of adjustments, Finale's issues with slur curves and directions, stem lengths, beam angles and line thicknesses are much more glaring to me than the weaknesses of the Dorico example. Also, since I know how much control I have over Dorico's automatic behavior via it's engraving, notation and layout options, I'm sure it's able to come a lot closer to the ideal result without any manual intervention than what Finale can, even with the most clever of settings.

I do however completely agree with the objections to Dorico's slur shapes. Finale's defaults are ugly in their own right, but can easily be made to surpass the dorico defaults. And even though Dorico surpasses Finale with regard to control over finer points in placement and curvature, the core shape of the Dorico slurs, which aren't evenly tapered all the way to the end points and therefore can produce rather ugly results, especially for sharper curves, seems impossible to improve upon significantly. This is quickly becoming my number one issue with Dorico, simply because there is no way around it. I am surprised that this issue (to my knowledge) has yet to be raised on the Dorico forum, Although it may be because so many of their users have been accustomed to the Sibelius slurs, which aren't much better.
Hi Knut,
To my eyes, Dorico's output is too thick .. maybe it's because the Bravura font .. i don't know.
About the slur, i got some input regarding the Slurs from Octo and other engravers plus my own tweaks, i must say it's better now than before .. so for me is enough with Sibelius and Finale since Dorico is still an infant software. And Avid has announced their ACA so they could develop Sibelius even further. Anyway it's a matter of habit i guess. I saw some publisher even the big one still using the old Encore for their edition and even though it looks terrible .. but yeah, the engravers still got their job to be done on whatever software they're using.
regards

P.S: an example of Slur in Sibelius tweaked by me based on Octo's and other engravers suggestion
Tweaks.png
Tweaks.png (28.55 KiB) Viewed 1961 times
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Knut
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Re: Dorico Finale Side by Side

Post by Knut » 22 Dec 2016, 15:07

I agree that the default look of Dorico is too thick, but then again, I think Finale's default look is too thin, so that part kind of evens out between the two.

Sorry to say, but your tweaked slurs look too much like the Finale defaults for my taste; the tips are a bit too thin. I would tell you too increase the width a bit, but I think the uneven tapering, similar to the Dorico slurs, might present other problems in the shape if you did.

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odod
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Re: Dorico Finale Side by Side

Post by odod » 22 Dec 2016, 15:15

Knut wrote:I agree that the default look of Dorico is too thick, but then again, I think Finale's default look is too thin, so that part kind of evens out between the two.

Sorry to say, but your tweaked slurs look too much like the Finale defaults for my taste; the tips are a bit too thin. I would tell you too increase the width a bit, but I think the uneven tapering, similar to the Dorico slurs, might present other problems in the shape if you did.

Ahh okay, thanks for the input .. :)
will tweak some more again .. even though after i read so many literature,i do believe that Slur is kind of a personal touch/taste from an engraver.
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odod
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Re: Dorico Finale Side by Side

Post by odod » 23 Dec 2016, 02:45

John Ruggero wrote:Odod, I do have the same reservations about the slurs and ties as with the Dorico. They are too thick (untapered) and prominent for my taste. Otherwsie, I prefer this version to the Dorico. The spacing is much better, as is the note head size, and the musical picture more inviting. I would prefer thicker beams, smaller expressions. What is the software and font?
it is Sibelius sir, and i did several times trying out with Dorico, the workflow just don't fit my habits ..
and there's no example score to play with .. starting out with only 1 bar is just doesn't make sense to me :)
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NicholasG
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Re: Dorico Finale Side by Side

Post by NicholasG » 23 Dec 2016, 20:52

odod wrote:it is Sibelius sir, and i did several times trying out with Dorico, the workflow just don't fit my habits ..
and there's no example score to play with .. starting out with only 1 bar is just doesn't make sense to me :)
What I like about Dorico is that when you start a new project, all you have to enter is the instrument(s). The reason you have just one measure is that you add the meter and key afterwords. If Dorico dosen't know the meter, how can you have multiple measures. Also, Dorico allows you to create a piece with Just ONE LONG measure. Many times in Finale, when starting an original piece, I wind up changing my mind about the meter, so I like Dorico's approach in this respect.
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mducharme
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Re: Dorico Finale Side by Side

Post by mducharme » 24 Dec 2016, 18:40

Here, I got the default slurs in Dorico to look a bit better for those figures with Engraving Options changes (defaults in the program):
adjustedslurs.PNG
adjustedslurs.PNG (32.7 KiB) Viewed 1885 times
The settings I used were "Maximum distance to move endpoints to avoid collisions" reduced from the default to 1 space, and "Maximum increase in height to avoid collisions" increased from the default to 8 spaces.
Last edited by mducharme on 24 Dec 2016, 19:06, edited 1 time in total.

mducharme
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Re: Dorico Finale Side by Side

Post by mducharme » 24 Dec 2016, 18:53

Here is another edited example, took the last one, added the missing tie and text/dynamics, and reduced the "staff line thickness" and "bar line thickness" settings. I also adjusted the "slur thickness" (lowered it to make it look more like FInale) and increased the tie height slightly.
tieheight.png
tieheight.png (57.21 KiB) Viewed 1865 times
I think that Dorico output is looking nicer now (Note: I didn't have to make any manual adjustments, this is all simply by adjusting program defaults). The notes 'pop' a bit more on the page.

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