Lilypond

Recommendations concerning notation and publishing software in a non-partisan environment.
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tisimst
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Re: Lilypond

Post by tisimst »

OCTO wrote:
John Ruggero wrote:Is a GUI inherently impossible with LilyPond?
I think there is Musescore as the alternative. Now, I am not entirely sure how Lilypond relates to Musescore. Is it the main engine for Musescore?
No, LilyPond is a fundamentally different software design than MuseScore. There's no reason you couldn't use MuseScore as the front-end to LilyPond's engraving engine (indeed, there used to be a way to export to LilyPond, but no longer), but that's a matter of convincing the developers to do so. Like Pierre said, the only similarity is the music font and even then it's not really even the same. LilyPond is still the only music software I'm aware of that utilizes separate optically-sized fonts depending on the real staff-size vs everything else that just has one and scales it to the right size. It's a beautiful thing.
OCTO wrote: Pierre, could you be able to share the text file of the code (as an .txt attachment)?
As confident as I am in Pierre's coding abilities (and believe me, I really am), I wouldn't recommend using this score as your first tutorial--more like a deep dive. Save it for later after you've had some time to figure out the syntax, but not now. He's doing some slightly advanced coding that is absolutely *awesome*, but it is not representative of _most_ typical LilyPond input files. Typical of contemporary music, which we all know is full of non-traditional notation, but not typical of most everything else. Most other scores' input files are VASTLY simpler than this one.
OCTO wrote: Also, how long would take someone with 0 knowledge to learn it so that this example can be engraved?
Great question, but I'm afraid that depends entirely upon how much time you are willing to spend learning and whether or not you have had any programming experience before.
OCTO wrote: Also 2, is there tool for extracing part?
Here's one way that LilyPond is fundamentally different *by design*. In LilyPond, you don't "extract" parts like with virtually all other GUI-based programs. Instead, you do the reverse where you create the individual parts and store them in variables. Once that's done, you can re-use them wherever and however many times you desire. For example, say I wanted to create a part for trumpet, I'd do something like this (variable names are arbitrary):

Code: Select all

trumpetNotes = { ... music here ... }
Right now, if you compiled the file, you wouldn't get anything because all you've done is saved the content for later. You can write the part in concert pitch or transposed and can convert either way later once we have the music written down. Let's say it's in concert pitch, just for example. Later on, I can use this variable which contains the trumpet music to produce the conductor's score and one for the individual part. Something like this:

Code: Select all

% conductor's score
\score {
  <<
    ... (other instruments here) ...
    \new Staff { \trumpetNotes }
    ... (other instruments here) ...
  >>
  \layout {
    ... conductor score related page layout choices ...
  }
}

% part's score
\score {
  \new Staff { \transpose c f \trumpetNotes }
  \layout {
    ... part score related page layout choices ...
  }
}
Now, this is a little simplified, but it shows the main idea of what you mean by "extracting parts". It is SOOOOOOO nice to work this way. By putting the individual parts in variables, I am given the freedom to manipulate it in so many ways in the score (i.e., combining parts into a single staff, transposing in one score, but not another, etc.).

Now, coming from a purely graphical way of inputting music to a text-based way can seem like you've traveled to a distant planet, but I have found that I can input music just as fast (if not faster) than the graphical way, my errors are more obvious, the connections between notation elements are BLATANTLY obvious so that if you need to move an articulation or re-connect a slur, etc., you know exactly where it was and where to move it. Another thing I love about using text input is that the files are virtually bullet-proof. You can open them in so many programs (yes, even on your smartphone) to make edits.

Alright, I've probably talked your ears off, but here's what I'd do. Follow Pierre's advice. Go through the online "Learning" documentation for a quick-start to understanding the syntax. Play around with the examples. If you are hesitant to (or just plain can't) install LilyPond on your computer, you can use an online editor called LilyBin http://lilybin.com/ which allows you to use the full LilyPond binary from the comfort of your web-browser. There's almost no excuse to NOT at least try it out.

Oh, and I'll put my 2 cents in for Frescobaldi. It is absolutely fantastic as an environment for creating LilyPond files, including command completion, tabbed interface for having multiple files open, lots of tools to help with file setup, quick inserts, and more! It's my editor of choice, hands down. I've heard good things about Denemo, but it just wasn't for me. I just found that it got in the way and I could more quickly get exactly what I wanted with the pure text input.
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OCTO
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Re: Lilypond

Post by OCTO »

Personally I am interested in whatever kind of good engraving tool, which produces a good result.
However, I have not been engraving my scores for years, and so using Lilypond would imply that a Lilypond engraver does it. But I AM interested in Lilypond and might give a try.

One thing that I am a bit worried about is bug reports, bug fixing and implementation of new tools. Don't take me wrong: I am a big fan of Richard Stallman and I do like the free software philosophy. Sometimes I am worried about that the lack of investments can ruin users' business, if depending only on someones free will/time. When the development/user base is so small as it is with Lilypond, in comparing to Linux kernel development, you really can depend on one or two persons' will, health, time...
It is now a long subject which I don't want to chew here, but you probably understand.
If I go to to the bug report page I can see some thousands of bugs/issues submitted but just 59 fixed:
https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list
Do I misunderstand something?

I would really love to have Lilypond to be a full successor of SCORE. Maybe Lilypond engineers should contact Leland Smith, perhaps it could be some collaboration.
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RMK
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Re: Lilypond

Post by RMK »

I believe Mr. Smith died a few years ago.
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OCTO
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Re: Lilypond

Post by OCTO »

RMK wrote:I believe Mr. Smith died a few years ago.
OH, I didn't know... :(
He was the great man.
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tisimst
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Re: Lilypond

Post by tisimst »

OCTO wrote:Personally I am interested in whatever kind of good engraving tool, which produces a good result.
However, I have not been engraving my scores for years, and so using Lilypond would imply that a Lilypond engraver does it. But I AM interested in Lilypond and might give a try.
You should! It's a fantastic program. Perfect? Almost, but no. ;-) However, it gives you a much better starting point than other programs IMHO when you need to make tweaks/edits to get exactly what you want.
OCTO wrote: One thing that I am a bit worried about is bug reports, bug fixing and implementation of new tools... Sometimes I am worried about that the lack of investments can ruin users' business, if depending only on someone's free will/time. When the development/user base is so small as it is with Lilypond, in comparing to Linux kernel development, you really can depend on one or two persons' will, health, time...
You are right. Without the backing of a larger organization, this is what runs the show. Fortunately, this kind of lifestyle breeds developers who do it because they just love to.
OCTO wrote: If I go to to the bug report page I can see some thousands of bugs/issues submitted but just 59 fixed:
https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list
Do I misunderstand something?
Thankfully, yes. I'm not sure where you pulled those numbers from, but that doesn't really matter. Google Code recently went read-only, so the bugs/issues list migrated to a Sourceforge location: http://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/stats/

As of 11AM today (MDT), here are the stats related to reported issues:
- Closed - 3640
- Open - 1005

There's definitely still work to be done, but I hope that shows you that the developers are very involved in the bug-fixing/improvement-implementing process. In fact, recently I saw a developer take someone's bug report and implement a fix in something like 20 minutes for the next version. Naturally, this isn't the norm, but still. The devs are actively monitoring the user/bug/dev lists.

On the other hand, if a user has an aptitude for coding, and they see an area that needs fixing or is lacking in functionality (like I did with LilyPond's previous inability to use alternate music fonts) they can implement a fix and submit it for incorporation into the core code! That's absolutely wonderful, if you ask me! It took me just a few days with the help of other developers to get my code integrated. Now, no hacks are necessary with any build after 2.19.11. The latest "stable" version 2.18.2 still needs a small patch installed.
OCTO wrote: I would really love to have Lilypond to be a full successor of SCORE. Maybe Lilypond engineers should contact Leland Smith, perhaps it could be some collaboration.
Yes, unfortunately the man passed on not even one year ago (Dec. 17, 2014) http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/janu ... 10914.html. What kinds of things would you like to be able to do in LilyPond that you can do in SCORE? It might already be possible, just a matter of learning the syntax...
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NicholasG
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Re: Lilypond

Post by NicholasG »

My question is, how long did it take to create SlippySurface in LP?
When I have to go outside the box in what's possible in Finale, I generally use Illustrator. I attached a replica of SlippySurface I created in Illustrator. I think it took me about 30 min. or so.
Attachments
SlippySurfaceSample-01.png
SlippySurfaceSample-01.png (203.95 KiB) Viewed 12258 times
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Schneider
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Re: Lilypond

Post by Schneider »

Hi NicholasG,

Nicely done! ;)
NicholasG wrote:My question is, how long did it take to create SlippySurface in LP? [...]
What took me some time was to create a code that define a curved staff-line (named 'split-staff'). The rest was done pretty quickly.
Let say, one hour, maybe two for the whole score (honestly, I don't remember).
But now I can reuse 'split-staff' without wasting any time, e.g. http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=1007
NicholasG wrote:[...] When I have to go outside the box in what's possible in Finale, I generally use Illustrator. [...]
Now using Illsutrator - or whatever - is something I want to avoid. Just a personal choice.
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Re: Lilypond

Post by NicholasG »

I can see you're point in the ability of re-using. All said, I think I'll try LP and see where it takes me.

Thanks
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tisimst
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Re: Lilypond

Post by tisimst »

I realize this is a much delayed response to your message, NicholasG, but please don't hesitate to ask if you are having troubles getting used to the syntax. I know both Pierre and I would be happy to help. And if you subscribe to the lilypond-user mailing list, you'll see us and many other experienced users providing advice to those who need it. I've seen Pierre come up with some fantastic solutions to some tricky problems, so don't be shy!

Here's the mailing list link: https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
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