Dorico Pro 2 released

Recommendations concerning notation and publishing software in a non-partisan environment.
harpsi
Posts: 28
Joined: 08 Oct 2015, 10:30

Re: Dorico Pro 2 released

Post by harpsi » 02 Sep 2018, 09:04

John Ruggero wrote:
01 Sep 2018, 14:56
First mov. m. 16 etc.:

Stems down for the middle line note is the current standard practice, except when context dictates otherwise. It is my impression that in the 18th century, it was up stems for the middle line note in many musical circles. So I was assuming that Wesstrom was one of those. If Dorico is doing this as a default, perhaps it is the result of a setting of some kind because there is no apparent contextual reason for the up stems in m. 16. I am assuming that Dorico does not look ahead to m. 30 to change all the previous measures to up stems. If so, it is more intelligent than I thought! However, if I were modernizing the notation, I would use all down stems from 16-33. And why doesn't Dorico make m. 90 up stems, or ms. 137-144 down stems given what happens in the following measures?
Thank you John, Now I see what you mean.I did not manually flip any stems, but the setting for stem direction on middle line is set to "Determine by context". Dorico apparently looks ahead to m. 27. If I change the first note of m. 27 to an f#, that will flip stems in m.16-27. If I set it to "Use default direction" stems will be down from 16-33.

M. 90 and ms 137-144 -- Dorico looks back to the previous measure.

In the manuscript all the measures quoted are downstem except m.90-.
John Ruggero wrote:
01 Sep 2018, 14:56
I like Dorico's centered positioning of the f's, but not the p's which seem too far to the right to me also. This might be a case where the human mind follows a more complex rule than Dorico.
Here Finale has more fine grain possibilities as settings for each dynamic can be predefined. As I worte in the post above I have changed the setting, I will upload a new sample.
John Ruggero wrote:
01 Sep 2018, 14:56
Callasmaniac wrote:
01 Sep 2018, 11:20
change the layout to be more in one with the musical phrases
Excellent point. It is better to avoid "widow" and "orphan" measures. This is a perfect example of something that requires human intervention and hopefully is very easy in Dorico, as it is in Finale.
Doable with system breaks and the make into system command.

harpsi
Posts: 28
Joined: 08 Oct 2015, 10:30

Re: Dorico Pro 2 released

Post by harpsi » 02 Sep 2018, 09:11

Attachments
center of notehad.PNG
center of notehad.PNG (52.21 KiB) Viewed 350 times
lefthand.PNG
lefthand.PNG (50.36 KiB) Viewed 350 times
opticallefthand.PNG
opticallefthand.PNG (51.7 KiB) Viewed 350 times

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1271
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Dorico Pro 2 released

Post by John Ruggero » 02 Sep 2018, 16:11

harpsi wrote:
02 Sep 2018, 09:04
the setting for stem direction on middle line is set to "Determine by context". Dorico apparently looks ahead to m. 27. If I change the first note of m. 27 to an f#, that will flip stems in m.16-27. If I set it to "Use default direction" stems will be down from 16-33.

M. 90 and ms 137-144 -- Dorico looks back to the previous measure.
It appears then that Dorico is not intelligent enough to understand the musical contexts, looking forward in one case and back in another and not really getting what is going on musically. I would therefore not use the Determine by Context mode at all in Dorico, because it would give me more work than less.

Regarding the widows and orphans:
harpsi wrote:
02 Sep 2018, 09:04
Doable with system breaks and the make into system command.
I remember this from my Dorico trial. Finale's approach with the up and down arrow keys is so much easier. I often try different layouts in quick succession to see what looks best. This might be more cumbersome in Dorico.

Regarding the placement of the dynamics and your examples of Dorico options:
harpsi wrote:
02 Sep 2018, 09:04
Finale has more fine grain possibilities as settings for each dynamic can be predefined
In that case, Dorico needs to allow the user to adjust the default position of each dynamic according to their own taste. Option 1 "center of notehead" is the one that I would use, but then I would have to adjust all the p's to the left a little because my eye expects to see the loop of the p centered under the notehead. The f's are better because the symbol is more symmetrical, but I might move it left very slightly as well. The other dynamics are more forgiving because so much is going on visually, but the "lefthand" and "optical lefthand" versions seem "wrong" to me in every case. Of course, this is all a matter of personal preference and one sees various approaches in fine engraving.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

User avatar
tisimst
Posts: 308
Joined: 08 Oct 2015, 17:57
Location: UT, USA
Contact:

Re: Dorico Pro 2 released

Post by tisimst » 02 Sep 2018, 17:16

FWIW, the “optical” center for the dynamic letters is a human-decided horizontal position that is “embedded” into the corresponding metadata file of the chosen SMuFL font. Personally, I always thought that the optical centers in Bravura were a little off, as you’ve suggested, John. Because it’s part of the metadata file and not the font file itself, it’s actually something you could tweak. Either way, it’s not quite right as it is.
Music Typeface Designer & Engraver - LilyPond | Sibelius | Finale | MuseScore | Dorico | SMuFL | Inkscape | FontForge
http://www.musictypefoundry.com

benwiggy
Posts: 179
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 19:42

Re: Dorico Pro 2 released

Post by benwiggy » 03 Sep 2018, 09:18

tisimst wrote:
02 Sep 2018, 17:16
FWIW, the “optical” center for the dynamic letters is a human-decided horizontal position that is “embedded” into the corresponding metadata file of the chosen SMuFL font. Personally, I always thought that the optical centers in Bravura were a little off, as you’ve suggested, John. Because it’s part of the metadata file and not the font file itself, it’s actually something you could tweak. Either way, it’s not quite right as it is.
Ooh, that's interesting. My main complaint is that Dorico puts the tr symbol left-aligned, rather than centred (presumably because it's intended to be used with a line). If I could 'nudge' it over a bit, that would be perfect!

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1271
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Dorico Pro 2 released

Post by John Ruggero » 03 Sep 2018, 14:56

Callasmaniac wrote:
01 Sep 2018, 11:20
Somehow it seems like all the dynamics are little too much to the right
tisimst wrote:
02 Sep 2018, 17:16
I always thought that the optical centers in Bravura were a little off
benwiggy wrote:
03 Sep 2018, 09:18
My main complaint is that Dorico puts the tr symbol left-aligned, rather than centred
It is interesting that there seems to be general agreement that there is room for improvement in Dorico's placement of some elements.
tisimst wrote:
02 Sep 2018, 17:16
Because it’s part of the metadata file and not the font file itself, it’s actually something you could tweak
That is encouraging because it might not be too difficult for Dorico to add greater control in a user-friendly way.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

benwiggy
Posts: 179
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 19:42

Re: Dorico Pro 2 released

Post by benwiggy » 03 Sep 2018, 16:21

John Ruggero wrote:
03 Sep 2018, 14:56
That is encouraging because it might not be too difficult for Dorico to add greater control in a user-friendly way.
The 'direction' of Dorico's feature implementation seems to suggest much more control of all elements as time goes by. The Performance Techniques editor, roughly analogous with Finale's Expressions Designer, is one such example, where prior to its introduction there was just a palette of built-in symbols. Similarly, we now have the Notehead Editor, and the Tonality System Editor, etc, etc. It's obvious that future updates will bring more and more 'editors' and control options to each of Dorico's functional groups. There are already XML 'hacks' that can be added to user settings files to enhance or modify a whole heap of stuff.

The team are doing a marvellous job of producing a product that is functional within limits, and then they continually expand the circle of its feature set. Critics say "oh, it can't do this, and it can't do that; and you had to pay for v2's additions": but it's had three significant updates since Finale 25.5 was released, and it's likely to have another before the year is out.

harpsi
Posts: 28
Joined: 08 Oct 2015, 10:30

Re: Dorico Pro 2 released

Post by harpsi » 03 Sep 2018, 21:44

To add to all this: We all have different demands, but personally I must say that the time I save using Dorico's superior layout features is worth every single little tweak I have to do, and for my taste I do not have to do that many. No doubt, I still have more control over small details settings in Finale, but nevertheless I have to work so much more in Finale to get an acceptable final result. And I keep editing things that I really should not have to edit. The flexibility of Finale comes with a price. Let's see what they will come up with for v26. There are some interesting videos.

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1082
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Dorico Pro 2 released

Post by OCTO » 04 Sep 2018, 09:53

harpsi wrote:
03 Sep 2018, 21:44
To add to all this: We all have different demands, but personally I must say that the time I save using Dorico's superior layout features is worth every single little tweak I have to do, and for my taste I do not have to do that many. I still have more control over small details settings in Finale, but nevertheless I have to work so much more in Finale to get an acceptable final result. And I keep editing things that I really should not have to edit.
I am happy to read your reviews; yet I think I will wait a score or two to be done in Finale, and perhaps Dorico v3 or v4 would be enough good for the contemporary stuff.
harpsi wrote:
03 Sep 2018, 21:44
The flexibility of Finale comes with a price. Let's see what they will come up with for v26. There are some interesting videos.
v26?? I must check it!
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25 • Sibelius 8 • MuseScore 2 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 9 • Digital Performer 9 /// OS X El Capitan, (side system: Debian 9, Windows 7)

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1271
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Dorico Pro 2 released

Post by John Ruggero » 04 Sep 2018, 16:33

benwiggy wrote:
03 Sep 2018, 16:21
The team are doing a marvellous job of producing a product that is functional within limits, and then they continually expand the circle of its feature set. Critics say "oh, it can't do this, and it can't do that; and you had to pay for v2's additions": but it's had three significant updates since Finale 25.5 was released, and it's likely to have another before the year is out.
Although I follow Dorico's fascinating development from the sidelines only, I have a similar impression. The care that is being taken with Dorico is indeed marvelous, and the way the user community has been brought into the development of the program is remarkable.
harpsi wrote:
03 Sep 2018, 21:44
No doubt, I still have more control over small details settings in Finale, but nevertheless I have to work so much more in Finale to get an acceptable final result.
Because of the nature of what I do, I need complete control over every element on the page—and this must be attainable with an efficient graphical interface. Finale is not quite flexible enough; nor Dorico. Whether the philosophy behind Dorico, or the culture at MakeMusic will allow such a program to be created remains to be seen.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

Post Reply