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Optical spacing

Posted: 10 Sep 2018, 11:30
by OCTO
When I look at this example, I feel that the second grace note is to much close to the main note.
Interestingly, the spacing (stem-to-stem) is correct, yet I can't remove my feeling that the spacing is improper.
How do you look at it?

This is done in Finale.
graces.png
graces.png (26.28 KiB) Viewed 405 times

Re: Optical spacing

Posted: 10 Sep 2018, 11:46
by tisimst
Unquestionably, the second grace note and the main note look too close together, but it should only need a small re-allocation of spacing to give it enough air on both sides.

Re: Optical spacing

Posted: 10 Sep 2018, 11:46
by MalteM
LilyPond agrees:
lily2.png
lily2.png (15.47 KiB) Viewed 402 times
lily1.png
lily1.png (14.04 KiB) Viewed 402 times

Re: Optical spacing

Posted: 10 Sep 2018, 19:57
by OCTO
MalteM wrote:
10 Sep 2018, 11:46
LilyPond agrees:
The same example, is it LP default?
So interesting, LP moves the note to make optical illusion of proper spacing.

How about other programs, particularly Dorico (default)?

Re: Optical spacing

Posted: 10 Sep 2018, 20:03
by MalteM
Yes, that’s LilyPond’s default spacing.

Re: Optical spacing

Posted: 10 Sep 2018, 23:41
by tisimst
Here are some surprising results...

Dorico 2.0:
dorico-2-default-grace-optical-spacing.png
dorico-2-default-grace-optical-spacing.png (23.76 KiB) Viewed 371 times
Sibelius 8.5:
sibelius-8.5-default-grace-optical-spacing.png
sibelius-8.5-default-grace-optical-spacing.png (55.26 KiB) Viewed 371 times
Musescore 2.3:
musescore-2.3-default-grace-optical-spacing.png
musescore-2.3-default-grace-optical-spacing.png (23.19 KiB) Viewed 371 times

Re: Optical spacing

Posted: 11 Sep 2018, 06:37
by OCTO
In my opinion Dorico has the worst output here.

Re: Optical spacing

Posted: 11 Sep 2018, 11:15
by MalteM
I agree, but MuseScore isn’t really better. I’m a bit surprised that only Sibelius and LilyPond do optical spacing correctly here …

Re: Optical spacing

Posted: 11 Sep 2018, 12:07
by OCTO
MalteM wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 11:15
I agree, but MuseScore isn’t really better. I’m a bit surprised that only Sibelius and LilyPond do optical spacing correctly here …
Yes, but in my opinion Sibelius has its own spacing issue. To much space for grace notes, and also very strangely main notes. Just, I don't get it.

Re: Optical spacing

Posted: 11 Sep 2018, 15:29
by Schonbergian
Sibelius chokes and dies as soon as you throw anything into the spacing engine other than notes. Lyrics, in particular, never fail to screw up the look of the page. Amazing that it hasn't been improved after all this time.