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Making the switch to Dorico?

Posted: 05 Jun 2019, 01:17
by Fred G. Unn
Hi all,

I was just curious now that 2.x has been out a while, who else is making the switch over to Dorico? I see benwiggy over on the forums a lot, but just wondering who else is trying it and what your experience has been. I finally did my first commission in it (mostly because the Kimmel Center gave me entire month to do it) and even though I was incredibly slow, actually quite enjoyed learning it. I was working on an engraving job for a 5 movement piano piece in Finale (since the composer wrote it in Finale) and just got permission to XML it over to Dorico as all the grace notes and l.v. ties he wrote are a colossal PITA to get right in Finale.

Has anyone else made the switch to making it your primary notation software? Any pet peeves / workarounds / etc? I've been posting a bit on the Dorico forums, admittedly sometimes out of ignorance, but there are definitely things that are much more difficult, if not impossible, to accomplish in Dorico than Finale. I am giving it an honest go though, and really like many aspects of it. Since I'm spending the next week cleaning up 80ish pages of contemporary piano music in it, I was just wondering who else around here has made the switch.

Re: Making the switch to Dorico?

Posted: 05 Jun 2019, 14:10
by RMK
I am making the switch, although some clients still prefer Sibelius or Finale. Just did a large job for National Symphony and used it for the Harp parts, which would have been a pain in either Finale or Sibelius but were easy in Dorico.

Still not comfortable with note entry. I really should remap the rhythms to the numeric keypad to make it more like Sib/Fin.

About to start a more contemporary project and am not looking forward to kludging all the lines and arrows. I hope version 3 addresses this shortcoming.

Otherwise, I'm very happy with the output. Even though it may take a bit more time to enter notes, I am finishing projects in less time.

My only worry is that if Dorico can produce great results with little or no tweaking, there will be less need for professional engravers.

Re: Making the switch to Dorico?

Posted: 05 Jun 2019, 16:59
by Fred G. Unn
RMK wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 14:10
Still not comfortable with note entry. I really should remap the rhythms to the numeric keypad to make it more like Sib/Fin.
I'm not either. I decided to just go with their default values (diff than Finale obviously) and force myself to learn it. I remapped all kinds of other stuff though. I have a used Stream Deck incoming too that hopefully I can program to save some time as well.

RMK wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 14:10
Otherwise, I'm very happy with the output. Even though it may take a bit more time to enter notes, I am finishing projects in less time.
I really like the vertical spacing algorithms and "master pages" concept. The final editing does seem much faster.

RMK wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 14:10
My only worry is that if Dorico can produce great results with little or no tweaking, there will be less need for professional engravers.
LOL!

Re: Making the switch to Dorico?

Posted: 05 Jun 2019, 17:13
by OCTO
RMK wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 14:10
About to start a more contemporary project and am not looking forward to kludging all the lines and arrows. I hope version 3 addresses this shortcoming.
I am really looking forward to start using Dorico. I haven't even purchased it for testing purposes (out of money now + lot of other projects + small kids at home + etc), but I hope I will do it in closer future. I estimate 2 more years on Finale 25.5 and Sibelius and if Dorico makes this possible, what I've adressed in the post here ( http://notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=452 ), I will for sure move!

Re: Making the switch to Dorico?

Posted: 07 Jun 2019, 18:01
by benwiggy
There's quite a few familiar names from the Finale forums on the Dorico board!

Dorico is still missing a few things, but I imagine that v3, due out later this year will address them. Currently, staff hiding is basic: you either exclude the player from the flow, or you turn on hiding for ALL empty system/staves.

But for note entry, I'm loving real-time MIDI input. Imagine: Hyperscribe that actually WORKS! I'm very fast with this.

NB: I wouldn't adjust the note duration numbers to Fin/Sib values, as they're used elsewhere in the app, like in the popovers, where they can't be changed.

Re: Making the switch to Dorico?

Posted: 10 Jun 2019, 08:34
by OCTO
I think that Dorico should implement some of pure graphical elements in the software (without actually being these involved in sound design nor MIDI manipulation). I am not sure why is that so difficult. Perhaps it is.
benwiggy wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 18:01
But for note entry, I'm loving real-time MIDI input. Imagine: Hyperscribe that actually WORKS! I'm very fast with this.
The Hyperscribe that WORKS? :eek: :eek:

Re: Making the switch to Dorico?

Posted: 10 Jun 2019, 11:48
by benwiggy
OCTO wrote:
10 Jun 2019, 08:34
The Hyperscribe that WORKS? :eek: :eek:
Yes! And if you don't like the results, you can re-quantise a selection to different values. Plus all the native note editing tools - shifting, inserting, changing note values, etc.

Re: Making the switch to Dorico?

Posted: 10 Jun 2019, 22:52
by John Ruggero
I enjoyed my 30 day free trial of Dorico 2 and may buy Dorico 3 when it comes out.But I was also relieved to get back to Finale. It is so simple and direct. For example, one can quickly change the layout for comparison purposes with one press of an arrow key. And there were things that are very important for my work that were impractical in Dorico.

Aside from that however, the artificial intelligence approach may not be a good fit for me. I enjoy laying out the notational elements to create exactly what I want, and I enjoy doing it with my own two hands with minimum of intervention from a program. If anything, I want more direct control over every element on the page, rather than less.

Re: Making the switch to Dorico?

Posted: 11 Jun 2019, 08:04
by benwiggy
John Ruggero wrote:
10 Jun 2019, 22:52
Finale. It is so simple and direct.

If anything, I want more direct control over every element on the page, rather than less.
John, I appreciate that your level of artistry and attention to detail is higher than most, but I spent most of my time with Finale not exercising artistic judgment or applying finesse, but just making basic corrections to deficiencies in Finale's notation. I was doing so much of this that by the time I'd got a document looking 'ok', I had run out of either time or patience for subtleties.

Would you really find it unwelcome if Finale:

* Positioned opposing voices correctly? Writing piano music, you must make thousands of these corrections needlessly. (And you'll be lucky if Finale doesn't move them back!)
* Moved staves apart to accommodate dynamics, slurs, lyrics, leger lines, etc? (Or provided any basic collision avoidance?)
* Floated rests further away when notes sat in their default position?
* Could handle ties on arpeggios with a single keypress?

Correcting these failings is not the user's 'control' of the notation: it is Finale's enslavement of the user! :grin:

I would argue that the controls for manual adjustments in Dorico are more capable and easier to use than Finale's. But this is after Dorico has already done sufficient basic layout work. Finale is like a 1st-year apprentice, who must still be shown how to do everything, and is not yet experienced enough to be trusted with any of the work itself. Ironic, for the old man of notation software.

A recent glance at the Finale users' forum shows repeated questions of "How can I do this?", to which the answer is "No, there's still no easy way", and where Dorico already has an elegant solution.
But most of all, I suspect that the deficiencies of Finale's notation engine will never be fixed, because doing so will alter existing documents and annoy users. The meagre fruit of the last two years -- articulation stacking and slur avoidance -- have been met on the user forum with indifference tinged with concern for its effect on existing documents.

Re: Making the switch to Dorico?

Posted: 11 Jun 2019, 10:26
by OCTO
John Ruggero wrote:
10 Jun 2019, 22:52
I enjoy laying out the notational elements to create exactly what I want, and I enjoy doing it with my own two hands with minimum of intervention from a program. If anything, I want more direct control over every element on the page, rather than less.
Have you tried MuseScore? I still use v2 and many of the things you have to do manually. I enjoy somehow that. It is like doing things on the empty canvas. The difference between Finale and Musescore in this matter is that in MS you can indeed move items and they remain there. Finale tends to move things without your knowledge. Another thing is the Inspector in MS. You can move an item EXACTLY and copy-apply that value to the another item. That is extremely useful. Manual edits n Finale doesn't provide any information where and how and how much an item was moved.

The inspector in Sibelius is similar but I will tell you from my experience that it is inferior to that of MS. (No idea how it looks in Dorico.)

^^this was off-topic.