Dorico/Lilypond/SCORE?

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OCTO
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Re: Dorico/Lilypond/SCORE?

Post by OCTO »

Den wrote:
09 Jul 2020, 21:06
My VirtualMachine doesn't work at all anymore so I have to reinstall it .... In the VM I ran MacOsX Catalina and NoteAbility Pro version 3. So I had to manage and borrow a very very old Mac G5 :-( which is slow, it's a bit say it's slow, ... very slow, and I worked in the old version 2.6 so it doesn't matter, because that computer is not mine.
Dear Den,
Thank you for that, and I am sorry to hear that it caused so much trouble to set up the system. I believed that you have already set up the software, otherwise I wouldn't ask you for examples.

When I saw your screen-screenshot "bang!" -- I have recognized it, and I have definitely tried it for a long, long time ago. Perhaps that time it was a demo, and I remember that accidental tool with numerous accidentals. Sometimes in my music I use quarter-tone accidentals and in Finale it was a pain to use it, and thus I was testing NoteAbility. [In Finale I had later discovered that I could use the nonstandard key signatures and to access various symbols, but last 5 years I use a better approach with with JW-Change that swaps an accidental into predefined symbols, with keyboard shortcuts. Yet, there is no playback of it.]

Your example is satisfactory and the output strikingly reminds me of Finale. I don't know how much you have adjusted the output and how much it is a "default" sample.

It is perhaps a satisfactory good notation software, but as many here pointed out, I think that the future is not guaranteed. Learning a new notation software is not the same as changing between MS Word or LibreOffice or OpenOffice etc. Apple and MS updates/upgrades their systems so quickly and a large software development could assure that the software will continue to work in the future.

I have been using Finale since 2000 and occasionally Sibelius and just once MuseScore. Now, I think, in the next 2-3 years I will switch to Dorico, or if something else happens stay on Finale, or move to Sibelius and MuseScore. Who knows!
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2020 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 10+ • Digital Performer 9+ /// MacOS Mojave, (side systems: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

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OCTO
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Re: Dorico/Lilypond/SCORE?

Post by OCTO »

Rafael Velasco wrote:
09 Jul 2020, 23:44
Here is a try with Dorico.
Regards
Rafael
That is very neat, thanks for the posting and your effort. It really looks very similar to the original example. How much it is adjusted manually? Was it difficult? Just curious.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2020 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 10+ • Digital Performer 9+ /// MacOS Mojave, (side systems: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

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OCTO
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Re: Dorico/Lilypond/SCORE?

Post by OCTO »

benwiggy wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 18:00
I was impressed by OCTO's original in MuseScore. I'd be interested to know how much work was involved, compared to, say, doing it in Finale. I started to attempt it in Dorico, but Rafaele's got a good result.
Thank you, benwiggy.
I began with it in Finale first, than the output was not so beautiful, somewhat different from what I expected. It looked similar to Dan's example in NAP.
What I wanted is to achieve a fluidity of my manuscript (see below), and Finale just was too stiff.
Than I have started with it in Sibelius, and despite of that I got a more satisfactory result (more harmonic, see below), I couldn't use it since it constantly reset my manual positioning (with the magnetic turned off!), that often resulted in a disaster.
In meanwhile I started with it in MuseScore -- I was just interested how it works, but actually after some testing I just kept working in it. It looked much more pleasing to my eyes (see below) and since it was just my first use of MuseScore I was curious!

Well, I have opened a topic here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=341

It is difficult to say if it took a lot of time, since I stared in November 2017, and finished in September 2019, with a lot of breaks of course. Also, I stared with the score completely unaware how the software works, so it is difficult to estimate how quick it could be. The score is certainly very advanced, see the latest posting. My estimation is that it takes as long time as in Finale.

The only ting that I did outside of the software (MS2) were zig-zag line and erasing staff lines behind fingerings. It was possible to do it with MS2 but it would take too much time to adjust. I wanted to keep zig-zag lines totally visually equal (there are maybe 15 such zig-zag moments) and I ended it in Affinity Publisher simply by copy-pasting(!) it.
Attachments
01 manuscript.jpg
01 manuscript.jpg (386.07 KiB) Viewed 1223 times
02 Sibelius.jpg
02 Sibelius.jpg (215.15 KiB) Viewed 1223 times
03 MuseScore 2.jpg
03 MuseScore 2.jpg (395.16 KiB) Viewed 1223 times
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2020 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 10+ • Digital Performer 9+ /// MacOS Mojave, (side systems: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

benwiggy
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Re: Dorico/Lilypond/SCORE?

Post by benwiggy »

If you, as a veteran user, were unable to produce the result you wanted in Finale, but able to achieve a better result in MuseScore, as a novice -- then that's a profound comment on the state of both those programs.

Interesting that you had to do the line work in Affinity. The Dorico example was done entirely within the app, and the lines are connected to notes or beats, so having made manual adjustments, they will still move with the layout, which is an advantage. However, it's probably a similar amount of work to doing it graphically.

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John Ruggero
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Re: Dorico/Lilypond/SCORE?

Post by John Ruggero »

benwiggy wrote:
11 Jul 2020, 11:54
If you, as a veteran user, were unable to produce the result you wanted in Finale, but able to achieve a better result in MuseScore, as a novice -- then that's a profound comment on the state of both those programs.
I had no issues doing OCTO's original first example entirely in Finale and will attempt some of the others later.
OCTO first example in Finale.jpeg
OCTO first example in Finale.jpeg (72.11 KiB) Viewed 1182 times
Last edited by John Ruggero on 11 Jul 2020, 20:20, edited 1 time in total.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

Rafael Velasco
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Re: Dorico/Lilypond/SCORE?

Post by Rafael Velasco »

OCTO wrote:
11 Jul 2020, 09:39
Rafael Velasco wrote:
09 Jul 2020, 23:44
Here is a try with Dorico.
Regards
Rafael
That is very neat, thanks for the posting and your effort. It really looks very similar to the original example. How much it is adjusted manually? Was it difficult? Just curious.
Hi,

It was not difficult but time consuming. I have used gliss lines for the zigzag lines, but if i had to do it again i would use the horizonzal lines attached to rhytmic positions just like in the fanned beams. I changed the settings for the gliss lines so they look thicker, but that is a global setting. For the horizonzal/vertical lines the settings can be modified individually. One way or the other you have to adjust every single one to get the zigzag. The good thing is that , just like benwiggy wrote before, once you have done it you can change the layout and don't have to worry about the adjustments you made. I'm attaching a gif where i have inserted a couple of system breaks to illustrate this point.
test lines.gif
test lines.gif (231.74 KiB) Viewed 1186 times

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John Ruggero
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Re: Dorico/Lilypond/SCORE?

Post by John Ruggero »

Here is the second example with the feathered beaming entirely in Finale., The MS flaired from three beams to four beams rather than 5, which I think looks better, so I went with four.
OCTO second example in Finale.jpeg
OCTO second example in Finale.jpeg (66.55 KiB) Viewed 1182 times
Last edited by John Ruggero on 12 Jul 2020, 12:01, edited 1 time in total.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

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Den
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Re: Dorico/Lilypond/SCORE?

Post by Den »

John Ruggero wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 17:38
Den, I just tried out NAP 2. It has many interesting features that I found appealing, particularly the way some elements are selected without handles present, which I wish were the case in Finale. And MusXML import seemed very good. Even Maestro, Engraver, and Petrucci fonts are available! But how this is legal, I can't imagine, except because of more lenient Canadian copyright laws?

However, i see in your examples the same problem I encountered: the staccato dos are offset over the right side of the note heads rather than centered. I looked in vain for a fix. The fact that this is the default raises a red flag for me. And as far as I could tell fine tuning of many elements is at a very rudimentary stage, making this software unusable for professional work.
Hi John, from v2 to NA the changes are now, as far as I know, fixed. The staccato is now centered and you can add a point anywhere and change position.
The problem is only when I found some time, I try to install> again everything from the beginning <, VirtualMachine etc .: Roll :: cry :: oops: ad
and ... after installing that program reinstall MacOS in VM ...
I need a lot of time for that installation. I don't have a 64-bit Mac and when all the system drivers are installed, I try to install all things with NAP 3, which is now also in beta ;-) No problem for that, the program works and many things are good, but Beta also has to go to the Final version :-)
Well, after that, if all of this works properly (hopefully, because sometimes those types of installations won’t work properly at all or don’t start), I can try again and see some features that interest you and put examples here.
Some functions work very well in NAP3, some do not ... so I think that this Beta is still in the phase of some development or testing. I hope that someday the final version will be finished soon.
Until then, all of us here can use already well-known programs and do with them whatever it takes. I can't wait for the finalization of the MS4 program, I think it's a very good program (MS3) ...
I will also try some interesting things in other programs that are not so demanding and that may be further processed in the graphics program. I like and aspire to more classical notation ... ;)

p.s. I use Google translate for help

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OCTO
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Re: Dorico/Lilypond/SCORE?

Post by OCTO »

Rafael Velasco wrote:
11 Jul 2020, 19:52
The good thing is that , just like benwiggy wrote before, once you have done it you can change the layout and don't have to worry about the adjustments you made. I'm attaching a gif where i have inserted a couple of system breaks to illustrate this point.
Well, this is absolutely wonderful — that the edited lines remains intact regardless of the music spacing. This is what I had a lot of trouble with Sibelius (& many other manual edits) and with MuseScore2 with these lines.

Dorico looks very nice indeed and I will be excited to go deeper in it. I might transfer my working environment into Dorico during the next years.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2020 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 10+ • Digital Performer 9+ /// MacOS Mojave, (side systems: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

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Den
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Re: Dorico/Lilypond/SCORE?

Post by Den »

OCTO wrote:
11 Jul 2020, 09:37
Den wrote:
09 Jul 2020, 21:06
My VirtualMachine doesn't work at all anymore so I have to reinstall it .... In the VM I ran MacOsX Catalina and NoteAbility Pro version 3. So I had to manage and borrow a very very old Mac G5 :-( which is slow, it's a bit say it's slow, ... very slow, and I worked in the old version 2.6 so it doesn't matter, because that computer is not mine.
Dear Den,
Thank you for that, and I am sorry to hear that it caused so much trouble to set up the system. I believed that you have already set up the software, otherwise I wouldn't ask you for examples.

When I saw your screen-screenshot "bang!" -- I have recognized it, and I have definitely tried it for a long, long time ago. Perhaps that time it was a demo, and I remember that accidental tool with numerous accidentals. Sometimes in my music I use quarter-tone accidentals and in Finale it was a pain to use it, and thus I was testing NoteAbility. [In Finale I had later discovered that I could use the nonstandard key signatures and to access various symbols, but last 5 years I use a better approach with with JW-Change that swaps an accidental into predefined symbols, with keyboard shortcuts. Yet, there is no playback of it.]

Your example is satisfactory and the output strikingly reminds me of Finale. I don't know how much you have adjusted the output and how much it is a "default" sample.

It is perhaps a satisfactory good notation software, but as many here pointed out, I think that the future is not guaranteed. Learning a new notation software is not the same as changing between MS Word or LibreOffice or OpenOffice etc. Apple and MS updates/upgrades their systems so quickly and a large software development could assure that the software will continue to work in the future.

I have been using Finale since 2000 and occasionally Sibelius and just once MuseScore. Now, I think, in the next 2-3 years I will switch to Dorico, or if something else happens stay on Finale, or move to Sibelius and MuseScore. Who knows!
Dear OCTO, as I said in a previous post to John, I hope to succeed in a complete reinstallation. I'm glad it reminded you of some nice weather and working with notation in the Final :-))) and NAP.
Like I said, I think a lot of things have been improved in version 3, only it's still very as we all know and see, very uncertain and who knows when the final version of that program will be. I had Finale, MuseScore and now a newer program - Dorico and what I'm not interested in at all is Sib. , because it always makes a mess in the end and it's not worth wasting your time on already seen problems a thousand times with that program ...
When I worked in this version as well (which I don't have now) I did export in EPS (PS) and then only in standard PDF. Nothing special but it's a simple thing I've been working with for years ...
The original vector format is always accurate and precise and during the conversion we get a quality finish.
There is nothing too complicated in your copies, but sometimes it is necessary to go in other directions (in any program!) To get as we imagined.
I saw your previous copies in MS and then you know for sure what I'm talking about. Something has to be hidden, something has to be extended, something has to move left and right ... not to mention a combination of note values ​​that have to be mixed with different tempos and rhythms in the beats. Sometimes it is very difficult to achieve what you imagine, you need to fight with the machine :-) :lol:
But, Dorico is here and... probably that is what you need.

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