[Lilypond] Numerous Questions & Thoughts

Recommendations concerning notation and publishing software in a non-partisan environment.
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John Ruggero
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Re: [Lilypond] Numerous Questions & Thoughts

Post by John Ruggero »

DatOrganistTho wrote:
Lets not forget that if Dorico/Finale/Sibelius can't do something you need it to do, you are stuck.
To me, this is the one of the most appealing things about LilyPond. One is more self-sufficient than with one of the GUI interfaces. However, FInale does have an active plug-in "community" that will supply new features if there appears to be interest. But these features do seem to be somewhat limited in scope and not at the more basic programming level of LilyPond.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
DatOrganistTho
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Re: [Lilypond] Numerous Questions & Thoughts

Post by DatOrganistTho »

John Ruggero wrote:DatOrganistTho wrote:
Lets not forget that if Dorico/Finale/Sibelius can't do something you need it to do, you are stuck.
To me, this is the one of the most appealing things about LilyPond. One is more self-sufficient than with one of the GUI interfaces. However, FInale does have an active plug-in "community" that will supply new features if there appears to be interest. But these features do seem to be somewhat limited in scope and not at the more basic programming level of LilyPond.
Yes, and don't forget you must have enough support for it. In LilyPond, you need only to email the list with a bounty and someone, if worth their time, will jump right on it.
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mmacauley
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Re: [Lilypond] Numerous Questions & Thoughts

Post by mmacauley »

A couple of observations:

About the Bach Gm fugue, Henle's layout matches Bischoff's, while B&H (ed. Mugellini) is tighter but, to my eye, also satisfying: 4,4,4,4,4 / 3,3,4,4. (Footnotes in four languages fill out the extra space on page 2.)

In m.26 (and 25 and 27), beat 1, RH, Peters and Bischoff and Henle all do what I believe is the standard alignment: align the stem of both RH voices with the stem of the LH voice. Lilypond, unconventionally I believe, aligns the left noteheads. Interestingly, B&H (Mugellini) splits the difference: the RH stems are aligned with the middle of the LH notehead. A case could be made for each approach, but I would favor the Peters/Bischoff/Henle solution as (1) being more conventional, (2) appearing more correct, (3) causing least distortion of the spacing of the LH rhythm, beat 1. (If I had time I would submit this to Lilypond as a feature request.)

Now, about Lilypond. I've used it quite a bit, and it is my second program of choice, after Graphire Music Press and before Sibelius and Finale. I certainly appreciate its automatic layout, spacing, and collision avoidance, which results in less need for manual tweaks. But I have found that the handful of manual tweaks inevitably required take an inordinate amount of time to research (in the manuals and/or discussion lists) and implement. And even moderately complex scores can easily require more than a handful of tweaks and therefore countless frustrating hours of time. (If I used Lilypond more often, I'm sure I could learn to perform tweaks more efficiently. But still, how much more satisfying to reshape a slur [or perform any other minor visual adjustment] with the mouse rather than by typing a set of coordinates!)

So for most projects I prefer using Music Press, which in many ways is opposite of Lilypond in its design: it requires a large number of tweaks for even relatively simple scores to look good. But for the most part, if one knows how to use the program (and auxillary tools like AutoHotKey), those tweaks can be made rather easily and with great power and flexibility. And because in most respects it doesn't try to be smart, it allows one to work very efficiently and with very predictable results. So while Lilypond might get me sooner to 80%, Music Press will allow me to catch up and beat it to 100%. And Music Press is the only program whose default font (and appearance and control of line weights, slurs, etc.) is, in my opinion, even better than Lilypond's. Of course it hasn't been developed since about 2000 so the feature-set is frozen and one wishes more things could be automated.

A few years ago I returned to Lilypond (and Sibelius and Finale) after a hiatus of about 5 years (or 10+ for Sibelius and Finale). I expected each program to have matured significantly, and was rather amazed to find certain basic weaknesses still untouched. I've also meanwhile discovered certain tools like Ecco Pro from the 1990's which has still not been rivaled in its basic design and feature-set. So I have contented myself to work with unmaintained, imperfect tools, particularly Music Press, and I hope (without holding my breath) that Lilypond and Dorico and who knows what else will exceed all of my expectations and reach unimagined levels of maturity in 12-20 years, presumably with the help of dedicated users like tisimst, and dare I say, more than a little luck.
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John Ruggero
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Re: [Lilypond] Numerous Questions & Thoughts

Post by John Ruggero »

Thank you for your comments, which I find particularly interesting because they are from someone who is fluent in many notational products. I do agree with your assessment of the alignment issue.

More comments from users of Graphire would certainly be welcome. Perhaps another thread? I would love to try it, because it sounds free and instinctive like hand copying, but the high price is prohibitive, especially with Dorico impending.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
jrethorst
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Re: [Lilypond] Numerous Questions & Thoughts

Post by jrethorst »

John Ruggero wrote:More comments from users of Graphire would certainly be welcome. Perhaps another thread? I would love to try it, because it sounds free and instinctive like hand copying, but the high price is prohibitive, especially with Dorico impending.
I've heard good things about Music Press too, but wonder if it's still for sale. The web site is there, but the program needs Mac OS 9 (which will run well on current Macs in emulation, but only so) or "Windows 95, 98, NT 4.0, 2000" -- not knowing Windows very well I don't know whether these OS versions run on current machines or whether Music Press will run on more modern versions of Windows. It might be another one of these nice notation programs like Nightingale that is apparently no longer in development.

The classical guitarist and music publisher Richard Yates uses, or used to use, Music Press to good advantage. I don't have contact info, but he's active on classical guitar web forums and might have some interesting comments on Music Press.
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rayates55
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Re: [Lilypond] Numerous Questions & Thoughts

Post by rayates55 »

Hi all, Actually all of my scores at www.yatesguitar.com are made with Finale 2007. There are a lot of tweaks to the settings and the use of custom characters.
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John Ruggero
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Re: [Lilypond] Numerous Questions & Thoughts

Post by John Ruggero »

Richard Yates emailed me that he uses Finale. Maybe mmacauley knows something more about the present state of Graphire Music Press. It is certainly a shame if it is languishing when it could become another open source product.
M1 Mac mini (OS 12.4), Dorico, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, Affinity Publisher 2, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro

http://www.cantilenapress.com
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OCTO
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Re: [Lilypond] Numerous Questions & Thoughts

Post by OCTO »

mmacauley wrote:A couple of observations:...
Thank you for such informative post, it is really pleasure to read.
jrethorst
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Re: [Lilypond] Numerous Questions & Thoughts

Post by jrethorst »

John Ruggero wrote:It is certainly a shame if it is languishing when it could become another open source product.
Agreed. The developer could also release a lite version as open source and charge for a full-featured version. The open-source version might attract enough people to develop a user base and generate customers for the paid version. A free version you can continue to use is much more interesting than a demo.

That said, if the program hasn't been updated for Mac OS X or equivalent releases of Windows, it may be too old to be revived. I certainly heard good things about it, though.
John Rethorst
jrethorst
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Re: [Lilypond] Numerous Questions & Thoughts

Post by jrethorst »

rayates55 wrote:Hi all, Actually all of my scores at http://www.yatesguitar.com are made with Finale 2007. There are a lot of tweaks to the settings and the use of custom characters.
Richard, do I remember that you used to use Graphire or is my memory completely gone? I'm looking at my copy of your very nice "Chopin -- 21 Selected Pieces", published by Guitar Solo in 2001. Was that done with Graphire?

If you used the program, could you share some thoughts about its interface, compared with Finale (and Sibelius, if you know it). I'm curious, since I haven't heard much about the program but what I've heard has been good.

Thanks again for the Chopin.
John Rethorst
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