Notation program...

Recommendations concerning notation and publishing software in a non-partisan environment.
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Den
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Re: Notation program...

Post by Den »

Benwiggy, the topic is not only about the functions of "Dorico" or only about any other program ... the fact that I post examples from some older programs, including the new Dorico, is not about those programs, but about the set topic "Notation program ..." that is, new ideas or desires that can be implemented and programmed into newer software. That's the topic ..... ok?

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John Ruggero
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Re: Notation program...

Post by John Ruggero »

benwiggy wrote:
22 Aug 2020, 15:28
Finale is brilliant for the 1% of cases where you want to do something unconventional, because doing something different is exactly the same amount of work as doing the conventional thing.
I agree completely, but in my case, make that about 50% of the time: stems and beams going the "wrong" way, slurs, articulations, tuplet indications on the "wrong" side, indications of various kinds all over the place, tight spacing conditions that can only be addressed by hand etc. So it is 50-50 whether Dorico can work for me.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
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Den
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Re: Notation program...

Post by Den »

Ehh, topic ... How good it would be to implement only the best from each notation program, even some seemingly simple functions, but with drastic optimization and even greater simplification. Dorico has some and very awkwardly implemented some from other programs ("linked parts" first original from Igor Engraver, second in Sibelius). (unfortunately). Thus, one can visually immediately see program inconsistencies or non-optimization of program code, so I hope that many things will be corrected and improved in the future. I recently tried Overture and it has a lot of good features, e.g. types of tuplets with different type, brackets, but inside >in function, not like add slurr etc. which is missing in other programs (Finale has it!, but not very god, in the Overture program it is better presented). So in this topic we have some ideas can come true or at least have a good wish, right?

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John Ruggero
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Re: Notation program...

Post by John Ruggero »

Sorry, Den. Back to the topic..

I guess my ideal program IS Finale, which has the right general balance of automatic vs non-automatic functions for me, with the following improvements:

1. Complete control over slur contour, like Dorico.
2. Complete control over every element on the page. For example, to compress an individual key signature if necessary.
3. Incorporation of the plug-ins and Perfect Layout.
4. Capability to go into "Dorico mode" so that rhythms can overlap bar lines to make beaming and tuplets over the bar line possible natively.
5. Better control over beaming patterns to include the "Humoresque-Grieg Concerto" pattern etc. like Dorico.
6. Ability to align any selected items horizontally and vertically.
7. Native ability to create keyboard commands for all operations, such as selecting a tool.
8. Better control over the left bar line to be able to do combinations of dashed and solid sections.
9. Better typographical features for text.

And I am sure there are others.

So I would only move to another program if it gave me more control and allowed me to work as well and efficiently or hopefully better than I do in Finale.
Last edited by John Ruggero on 24 Aug 2020, 01:52, edited 1 time in total.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

benwiggy
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Re: Notation program...

Post by benwiggy »

Den wrote:
22 Aug 2020, 16:20
Ehh, topic ... How good it would be to implement only the best from each notation program, even some seemingly simple functions, but with drastic optimization and even greater simplification.
This is a contradiction. Any 'drastic optimization and even greater simplification' is going to bring limitations that will annoy power users wanting advanced features. But really, unless you provide an example of a detailed interface scheme that works for every type of notation, this is just Fantasy Football.

I disagree with your assessment of the Linked Parts feature in the app that I am not allowed to discuss.

And John, I have to say your post is like Monty Python's "What have the Romans done for us?" :lol:

"Finale offers the perfect ideal of automatic functions, manual control and efficiency, ... apart from slurs, plug-ins, notation over barlines, beaming, alignment, key shortcuts, barlines, text...." (Vertical Spacing? Collision avoidance? Note adjustment in Layers? Nested dialogs? Ossias? Percussion? Chord Suffixes? MIDI Editing? The aqueduct?)

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John Ruggero
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Re: Notation program...

Post by John Ruggero »

Sorry, benwiggy. I guess the point of my last two posts was not clear.

Finale's general approach fits what I do extremely well because it is so flexible and non-controlling. If it had better collision avoidance and the things I listed, it would be better still, and it would be my dream program. But giving up such a flexible general approach? Not so sure about that.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

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Den
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Re: Notation program...

Post by Den »

Here is a short video gif in which we see exactly how "the latest new software" with the slogan "Most Advanced Music Notation System" works compared to the more than 20 yr old program...even more..!
Newer software is soooooooo slow and slower that I sometimes wonder "what are these people doing there anyway?"
You can see for yourself the impracticality.

Of course John, if many things change for the better, I agree with you 100%!

benwiggy, take a good very carefully look at this gif video and think again ... okay?
I’m not saying, again, that Dorico isn’t good, it's fantastic! , have good team, good examples etc.
but until an extremely simpler logic is done it will never be a full serious program, at least that is my personal opinion.
Try to change one very simple thing, e.g. move the name of the instrument anywhere or the main name of the composition, but where you want and how .... it is totally illogical in the direct approach, but it will have to go to the submenus and then more menus, ... and then more menus ... etc. etc.
Do you make a point? There is no simplicity. ENDE! And try working in Dorico with more than 200 pages and everything will be clear to you how slow it is ..... very very veeeeeeeeery slooooooooow programming code "in Dorico" that executes the display and performing actions.
That is facts.

Well, this is gif example for download:

https://workupload.com/file/gBtGnd5QzPz
(file is only 12 hours valid)

https://we.tl/t-LnCjXxPRxk
(Expires in 1 week)

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OCTO
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Re: Notation program...

Post by OCTO »

Den, you can upload the file with gif extension. Here is your film (click on it):
new Dorico vs 20yr old program.gif
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2020 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 10+ • Digital Performer 9+ /// MacOS Mojave, (side systems: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

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OCTO
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Re: Notation program...

Post by OCTO »

Den wrote:
23 Aug 2020, 17:53
Here is a short video gif in which we see exactly how "the latest new software" with the slogan "Most Advanced Music Notation System" works compared to the more than 20 yr old program...even more..!
Newer software is soooooooo slow and slower that I sometimes wonder "what are these people doing there anyway?"
You can see for yourself the impracticality.
I don't want to defend Dorico "per se", because I don't use it. But a notation software has numerous complex vectors, thus we use one that conforms the most of our needs. The speed is not important if it is not drastically changing simple entry (as it is with Finale on Mac, large documents). Another thing is how your graphic card is adjusted with the software. Is it common for other users as well, anyone to confirm?

An interesting thing is what you show in "another software" is that you move it by hand/mouse. What I would like is to have a total control of what is moved and how much, rather how fast I did it. I liked MuseScore very much, because you can indeed move any item by typing a value = the most slow but the most correct. I can than copy these values to other items if I want to have a perfect alignment. I think it is a striking feature, even Sibelius can't come close to it.

Den, when you move by mouse, how much do you move, do you know? Is there any window that shows coordinates? Can you move step-wise? It reminds me of old Finale: you can move it everywhere and than easy to get messy score.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2020 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 10+ • Digital Performer 9+ /// MacOS Mojave, (side systems: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

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Den
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Re: Notation program...

Post by Den »

ThnX OCTO!...
Program is veeeeeeery (20yr!) old and have not some functions like today new software. That is fact. :fer
Of course in all menus you can prepare layouts, sizes, measurements, how which function should look or behave, so ... more or less, the program is made more as a visual tool for and I rely on it much more visually, in this In this case, as it is, I don't think the developers were thinking about some additional visual controls at the time, but rather concentrating more on visualization, and if you're a good engraver, you'll never need it. Only good eye! And if you need something like that after the complete enrollment, everything can be additionally checked in DTP programs like Illustrator etc., at least today it is not a problem.
Mostly in this gif I worked with the mouse and the feeling is that when you move the notes, they move as much as you want. Very smooth and precise. Of course, there is another type of input and it is all similar to newer programs. I think some of this has been copied to Dorico as well so it’s nothing new to me.
In this thread I try to explain what it would be like "if" some things were implemented even better in the newer software but unfortunately ... they are not. For me personally, it's an ugly feeling at work, as if someone else is working for me and I don't have a feeling what I wanted to do at that moment, it gets lost in the air, hahahaha ... it happens :-)

Anyway, if I had the options I would do the right thing and not like it is now. And again I say in this topic, it's nice to see how some things work in other programs and then transfer some ideas to a new program, just as I see it, this has gone in a different direction and so far is my opinion that I have already expressed.
You are right about the mess, when you don't pay attention to what is being done, and if you don't have what it looks like from the beginning, it can happen, as in any program, but in the end very nice things can be done :-)))

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