Notation program...

Recommendations concerning notation and publishing software in a non-partisan environment.
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Den
Posts: 134
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Re: Notation program...

Post by Den »

Interesting functions in Overture. Good!
Here is tuplet menu.
And also have Bravura font
Overture tuplets.png

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Den
Posts: 134
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Re: Notation program...

Post by Den »

I try Dorico many things and program is slow... Really.
Ok.Try this.
If you have for example 50-... orchestration or similar chorus pages etc. and you need in middle of your work to add about hmmm ...4 -5 bars in some part and in some staff on your piece. Ok. When you click on popover click Bar (B) and Add that 4-5 bars. .....aaaaaaaanddd...you wait...and wait....and wait....cirle is working and working..About 5-10 seconds need that!
On other softwares on same machine that is instantly!
Also write Lirycs also is slow! Try to write 2nd or 3verse in lyrics and you'l see whats happening . Dorico team must rewrite complete code and try to find faster code solution. Now I see many things must fixes. Even you CAN't MOVE rest up or down to where you want. Everything go like "automatic machine" and you not need to think...no think at all! Give to all your job to "robot".
Must have customisation for moving this objects. And after this small test I ask my mind what am I doing with this program???Where is my first "idea" in mind? After this you loose in your mind many things.
Spaces is also not good..even "fantastic" function Condensing have some problems but...what can I say on end ....
Most Advanced Notation Program, but in the middle type "Slow".
If you need to loose your original concept or idea in your work than you go to this program, you nothing loose....on begining, but later....

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John Ruggero
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Re: Notation program...

Post by John Ruggero »

Den, you are much more knowledgable about all these older programs than I am, for sure, but I think I can understand your frustration. Each new set of developers doesn't seem to learn much from the successes and failures of the previous ones. So it is no wonder that after all this time, there is still not a program that answers the needs of musicians better than what we have now. It is truly a sad situation.

As far as Dorico goes, the artificial intelligence model is clearly not your ideal working space and probably not mine either. But I am glad you are trying it out. Given your knowledge of the subject, your experience with it could be very helpful.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
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OCTO
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Re: Notation program...

Post by OCTO »

Den wrote:
24 Aug 2020, 15:49
I try Dorico many things and program is slow... Really.
Ok.Try this.
If you have for example 50-... orchestration or similar chorus pages etc. and you need in middle of your work to add about hmmm ...4 -5 bars in some part and in some staff on your piece. Ok. When you click on popover click Bar (B) and Add that 4-5 bars. .....aaaaaaaanddd...you wait...and wait....and wait....cirle is working and working..About 5-10 seconds need that!
Interesting, that sounds like Finale.
I make (compose and engrave and edit) very large scores, and notation software gets more and more slow for every new page. That is the fact. I would like to know about Dorico: for instance Boulez "Notations" for orchestra, to be put in one file, incl. linked parts.

But now when I think: I would accept somehow slower processing speed in exchange for more stable score and more tools that I can use.

Den, you are using "the old software" on a decade or more newer computer. Also, the old software doesn't have all tools that process other things.
For instance, if I add new measures in Finale 2005 on my today's computer, it will work quickly. But I will not have possibility for magnetic layout and positioning, automatic removing empty staff, adding cues, linked parts, re-aligning all items to look perfect on new system/page break: I need to do all that manually in Finale 2005, and for every system break I need to do it AGAIN. So, if Dorico does all that for me (and more), than I will wait some seconds more.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2020 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 10+ • Digital Performer 9+ /// MacOS Mojave, (side systems: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

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Den
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Joined: 06 Feb 2020, 13:14

Re: Notation program...

Post by Den »

OCTO wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 07:32
Den wrote:
24 Aug 2020, 15:49
I try Dorico many things and program is slow... Really.
Ok.Try this.
If you have for example 50-... orchestration or similar chorus pages etc. and you need in middle of your work to add about hmmm ...4 -5 bars in some part and in some staff on your piece. Ok. When you click on popover click Bar (B) and Add that 4-5 bars. .....aaaaaaaanddd...you wait...and wait....and wait....cirle is working and working..About 5-10 seconds need that!
Interesting, that sounds like Finale.
I make (compose and engrave and edit) very large scores, and notation software gets more and more slow for every new page. That is the fact. I would like to know about Dorico: for instance Boulez "Notations" for orchestra, to be put in one file, incl. linked parts.

But now when I think: I would accept somehow slower processing speed in exchange for more stable score and more tools that I can use.

Den, you are using "the old software" on a decade or more newer computer. Also, the old software doesn't have all tools that process other things.
For instance, if I add new measures in Finale 2005 on my today's computer, it will work quickly. But I will not have possibility for magnetic layout and positioning, automatic removing empty staff, adding cues, linked parts, re-aligning all items to look perfect on new system/page break: I need to do all that manually in Finale 2005, and for every system break I need to do it AGAIN. So, if Dorico does all that for me (and more), than I will wait some seconds more.
O.K. Dear, OCTO, you think like me right now. You remind me with your thinking a lot of me and my enthusiasm only when I first saw that program. It's all ok. And I understand you absolutely! I will try to explain something to you ..without any desire to convince you of anything. Anyone.
I thought the same and I expected A LOT! from everything you wrote before, however ..... now in real life, it is something completely different. When you try it for the first time, you will have reeeeealy high expectations and a great desire to do this or that, no matter. Many things.
Some things work well but ... very important things inside in program logic are not programmed exactly as they advertised it. There is no logic or stability here. As you work a little harder and go deeper into the program, your great desire and excitement from the moment you first started it and the current excitement will subside over time and only then when you realize that in Dorico you can't do many of what you had in head and you thought he could, only then will you understand some of the things I've been talking about for a long time. Dorico of course has a number of features and capabilities, but his “internal logic” after a while becomes a big fatigue! Even some very simple things cannot be done and the program comes to its own confusion, wierd situations, gets entangled, creates confusion in the notes and similar things. I'm telling you this from my personal experience because I tried all this with a friend who has Dorico and even he himself says that his program is some quite illogical and has so many mistakes , not bugs!, that he gave up after a while to do notation.

There is no direct writing in the program, and in "Engraver" mode you already have to exit, ie. click on one of the two options. Engrave mode looks like a car that has problems synchronizing what you want and what is possible. Since I have already mentioned several old programs, among others, Igor Engraver ... everything is in one place! Not separated! As with other similar programs in which the logic of the mind rather than the logic of the machine developed. Eg. in Igor, the same operations and functions are done by pure logic in mind and user, not software and the actions are very complex, and it flies at lightning speed without errors that were stated. Graphire is also extraordinary unique software. Dorico maybe only have dreams in that logic. For that programs time has run over and nothing has update for many years, so what was done it's done. Sad and that is a fact. OCTO, I'm obviously trying to explain several times that this is not an "old or new program", which is "fast or sporty". This is not about the logic of "how much", but> "how it works" <. When I think about it a little better, a lot has been done and everything is much different and more natural and perfect what I want. To me, Dorico is as it is now completely unnecessary because I can only do everything I want with a couple of programs with pleasure and enjoy. Dorico like a new program hasn't tha logic. , doesn't even have that logic according to some programs on the triple-square. Too bad. Maybe is good who doesn't other things and there is no practical knowledge from the past (only theoretical), I don't know.
Even "Sonic Scores Overture" the latest 64-bit version! have some things that are better resolved than Dorico ... funny and true. I compared A LOT of music programs in music studio and with real orchestra and real musician , for years, so I came up with various insights. It would be best to see for yourself and start working with him. D. does some things totally weird and unrealistic. A lot of things can’t be obtained. Only maybe with a magic wand. You know very well how many strange musical scores there are and how much harder it is to enter them into notation program. My opinion is that, from what I saw you do and what you need in the future, and from what I have tried to do in many simple examples, I think you will work hard and lose and spend a lot of time and in the end you will be disappoint in some things. I'm not the only one, so you'll remember my well-meaning words someday. I stand behind everything I have said and shown so far. If you want to play with D. it's ok. Good for you. It looks to me like the latest sports car with a lot of everything, sensors, a strong engine, but a weak body and you can't drive on macadam with it in any way, on holes, grass, hills, streams ... even that car can't be climb on the sidewalk!!! The other thing is not to the car but to the ego of the driver who thinks he can go anywhere with it. That's what I thought until I realized that I couldn't even get on the sidewalk with that car because my wheels would run out or my tires or chassis would be something damaged. That is situation like with D. The context of the comparison is a bit strange to me, but I think so. When you have a car that is new, full of sensors and all sorts of electronics and techniques, which has automatic braking, etc., and with similar other older cars that do not have the limitations of today., even Viber every update have less and less manual control of what I want and more&more automatic controls what publisher need.
When you try D., be prepared that your wishes and expectations do not go in your way, but in a direction you could not see or imagine and then various problems arise-the other way. That's all I can say for now my friend. whatever you think now, Finale IS better solution, and more balanced logic and control everything! p.s. Try simple things in Finale , longer barline do down or up, just a little....and try that in Dorico...I have many many examples what you can do with other programs, never mind is it old or new, just try to look "program logic" and voala! :idea:

DatOrganistTho
Posts: 192
Joined: 19 Jan 2016, 17:30

Re: Notation program...

Post by DatOrganistTho »

Den wrote:
27 Aug 2020, 01:12
OCTO wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 07:32
Den wrote:
24 Aug 2020, 15:49
I try Dorico many things and program is slow... Really.
Ok.Try this.
If you have for example 50-... orchestration or similar chorus pages etc. and you need in middle of your work to add about hmmm ...4 -5 bars in some part and in some staff on your piece. Ok. When you click on popover click Bar (B) and Add that 4-5 bars. .....aaaaaaaanddd...you wait...and wait....and wait....cirle is working and working..About 5-10 seconds need that!
Interesting, that sounds like Finale.
I make (compose and engrave and edit) very large scores, and notation software gets more and more slow for every new page. That is the fact. I would like to know about Dorico: for instance Boulez "Notations" for orchestra, to be put in one file, incl. linked parts.

But now when I think: I would accept somehow slower processing speed in exchange for more stable score and more tools that I can use.

Den, you are using "the old software" on a decade or more newer computer. Also, the old software doesn't have all tools that process other things.
For instance, if I add new measures in Finale 2005 on my today's computer, it will work quickly. But I will not have possibility for magnetic layout and positioning, automatic removing empty staff, adding cues, linked parts, re-aligning all items to look perfect on new system/page break: I need to do all that manually in Finale 2005, and for every system break I need to do it AGAIN. So, if Dorico does all that for me (and more), than I will wait some seconds more.
O.K. Dear, OCTO, you think like me right now. You remind me with your thinking a lot of me and my enthusiasm only when I first saw that program. It's all ok. And I understand you absolutely! I will try to explain something to you ..without any desire to convince you of anything. Anyone.
I thought the same and I expected A LOT! from everything you wrote before, however ..... now in real life, it is something completely different. When you try it for the first time, you will have reeeeealy high expectations and a great desire to do this or that, no matter. Many things.
Some things work well but ... very important things inside in program logic are not programmed exactly as they advertised it. There is no logic or stability here. As you work a little harder and go deeper into the program, your great desire and excitement from the moment you first started it and the current excitement will subside over time and only then when you realize that in Dorico you can't do many of what you had in head and you thought he could, only then will you understand some of the things I've been talking about for a long time. Dorico of course has a number of features and capabilities, but his “internal logic” after a while becomes a big fatigue! Even some very simple things cannot be done and the program comes to its own confusion, wierd situations, gets entangled, creates confusion in the notes and similar things. I'm telling you this from my personal experience because I tried all this with a friend who has Dorico and even he himself says that his program is some quite illogical and has so many mistakes , not bugs!, that he gave up after a while to do notation.

There is no direct writing in the program, and in "Engraver" mode you already have to exit, ie. click on one of the two options. Engrave mode looks like a car that has problems synchronizing what you want and what is possible. Since I have already mentioned several old programs, among others, Igor Engraver ... everything is in one place! Not separated! As with other similar programs in which the logic of the mind rather than the logic of the machine developed. Eg. in Igor, the same operations and functions are done by pure logic in mind and user, not software and the actions are very complex, and it flies at lightning speed without errors that were stated. Graphire is also extraordinary unique software. Dorico maybe only have dreams in that logic. For that programs time has run over and nothing has update for many years, so what was done it's done. Sad and that is a fact. OCTO, I'm obviously trying to explain several times that this is not an "old or new program", which is "fast or sporty". This is not about the logic of "how much", but> "how it works" <. When I think about it a little better, a lot has been done and everything is much different and more natural and perfect what I want. To me, Dorico is as it is now completely unnecessary because I can only do everything I want with a couple of programs with pleasure and enjoy. Dorico like a new program hasn't tha logic. , doesn't even have that logic according to some programs on the triple-square. Too bad. Maybe is good who doesn't other things and there is no practical knowledge from the past (only theoretical), I don't know.
Even "Sonic Scores Overture" the latest 64-bit version! have some things that are better resolved than Dorico ... funny and true. I compared A LOT of music programs in music studio and with real orchestra and real musician , for years, so I came up with various insights. It would be best to see for yourself and start working with him. D. does some things totally weird and unrealistic. A lot of things can’t be obtained. Only maybe with a magic wand. You know very well how many strange musical scores there are and how much harder it is to enter them into notation program. My opinion is that, from what I saw you do and what you need in the future, and from what I have tried to do in many simple examples, I think you will work hard and lose and spend a lot of time and in the end you will be disappoint in some things. I'm not the only one, so you'll remember my well-meaning words someday. I stand behind everything I have said and shown so far. If you want to play with D. it's ok. Good for you. It looks to me like the latest sports car with a lot of everything, sensors, a strong engine, but a weak body and you can't drive on macadam with it in any way, on holes, grass, hills, streams ... even that car can't be climb on the sidewalk!!! The other thing is not to the car but to the ego of the driver who thinks he can go anywhere with it. That's what I thought until I realized that I couldn't even get on the sidewalk with that car because my wheels would run out or my tires or chassis would be something damaged. That is situation like with D. The context of the comparison is a bit strange to me, but I think so. When you have a car that is new, full of sensors and all sorts of electronics and techniques, which has automatic braking, etc., and with similar other older cars that do not have the limitations of today., even Viber every update have less and less manual control of what I want and more&more automatic controls what publisher need.
When you try D., be prepared that your wishes and expectations do not go in your way, but in a direction you could not see or imagine and then various problems arise-the other way. That's all I can say for now my friend. whatever you think now, Finale IS better solution, and more balanced logic and control everything! p.s. Try simple things in Finale , longer barline do down or up, just a little....and try that in Dorico...I have many many examples what you can do with other programs, never mind is it old or new, just try to look "program logic" and voala! :idea:
Den, all I have to say is that I think Dorico is great. But a couple comments:

Just because YOU don't understand why something is designed a certain way doesn't mean that it is 'illogical' or lacking it.

For example, you say "other similar programs in which the logic of the mind rather than the logic of the machine developed." This is a tasteless equivocation which can only be described as fallacious. What you are referring to is the logic of YOUR mind, which has been shaped by years and years of programs which have developed out of necessity of the hardware they were developed for. It is impossible to conceive of Finale 1.0 containing separate "environments" where you can do highly specialized things in each environment simply because the machine the program was written for wouldn't be able to handle that kind of hard division of labor.

But, what I must say is that Dorico has been terrific for unlearning the terrible practices of composers in the 20th and 21st century, namely that the composer wears a composing/writing hat and an editing hat at the same time. It has been utterly freeing of my own compositional journey to use Dorico to enhance both the writing and the editing process, versus other programs which needlessly devote my attention to collisions, inconveniences, and impossibilities.
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Den
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Re: Notation program...

Post by Den »

John's previous comment is quite realistic and practical for me, the man has a very clearly defined attitude and a simple explanation about the situation. I really appreciate one such critical mind! I’m glad there are people who have seen what I’m talking about and what exactly is going on.
John Ruggero wrote:
24 Aug 2020, 20:06
Each new set of developers doesn't seem to learn much from the successes and failures of the previous ones. So it is no wonder that after all this time, there is still not a program that answers the needs of musicians better than what we have now. It is truly a sad situation.
Thank you DatOrganistTho . Be patient with Dorico and with your work, I wish you all happiness and prosperity.
For me is waste time and explain something in "perpetual-mobile" vain if you don't understand, .....until one moment, until ... :idea: ... when you don't understand what we are talking about! Dorico doesn't even have a "Pause" in Play mode (v3.5 !) and especially some many other things in notation editing and serious detailing and engraving! Bad communication in enviroment "program-user-program". Slurs is....ahhh....never mind.
I think that even the respected Daniel S. is aware of that, I believe things can only be corrected in one way - in a simpler and more functional way. I know and understand this is a very complex "expensive sport" and it should be respected!!!!! ...anyway...
So, I understand the complexity of creating a creation like this that could have been better, unfortunately not fundamentally.

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OCTO
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Location: Sweden

Re: Notation program...

Post by OCTO »

Den, I am in dark because I don't have Dorico, so I just read what you all write.
My perception would be definitely more profiled if I have used it. So I can't answer to the postulates you express about it.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25.5 • Sibelius 2020 • MuseScore 2+3 • Logic Pro X+ • Ableton Live 10+ • Digital Performer 9+ /// MacOS Mojave, (side systems: Fedora 32, Windows 10)

DatOrganistTho
Posts: 192
Joined: 19 Jan 2016, 17:30

Re: Notation program...

Post by DatOrganistTho »

Den wrote:
27 Aug 2020, 12:39
John's previous comment is quite realistic and practical for me, the man has a very clearly defined attitude and a simple explanation about the situation. I really appreciate one such critical mind! I’m glad there are people who have seen what I’m talking about and what exactly is going on.
John Ruggero wrote:
24 Aug 2020, 20:06
Each new set of developers doesn't seem to learn much from the successes and failures of the previous ones. So it is no wonder that after all this time, there is still not a program that answers the needs of musicians better than what we have now. It is truly a sad situation.
Thank you DatOrganistTho . Be patient with Dorico and with your work, I wish you all happiness and prosperity.
For me is waste time and explain something in "perpetual-mobile" vain if you don't understand, .....until one moment, until ... :idea: ... when you don't understand what we are talking about! Dorico doesn't even have a "Pause" in Play mode (v3.5 !) and especially some many other things in notation editing and serious detailing and engraving! Bad communication in enviroment "program-user-program". Slurs is....ahhh....never mind.
I think that even the respected Daniel S. is aware of that, I believe things can only be corrected in one way - in a simpler and more functional way. I know and understand this is a very complex "expensive sport" and it should be respected!!!!! ...anyway...
So, I understand the complexity of creating a creation like this that could have been better, unfortunately not fundamentally.
Hi Den,

I fundamentally disagree. I use Dorico everyday. I don't need a "pause button" because when I press "stop" it stops in the frame/timecode/marker moment where I left it.

I'd like to hear how you would address my actual point, which is: How do you know that your way is "better"? Meaning, how do you REALLY know that it's better? I don't see Finale as "better" because Finale works an awful lot like a computer built in the 90s. If you are saying we should return to computers made in the 90s because they are more efficient, then I could understand your argument, but I cannot understand it now as it stands.
LilyPond Lover
Composer and Transcriber
Teacher and Performer

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John Ruggero
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Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Notation program...

Post by John Ruggero »

What a nice compliment, Den. Thank you very much! When I told my wife what I had written about the developers, she agreed wholeheartedly and said that in her many years as a systems designer, she had seen this phenomenon repeatedly. Software engineers are lone, problem-solving wolves who want to produce their very own solution.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

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