Grand staff hairpins/dynamics w/ cross-staff beaming

[MichelRE]

In writing out an orchestral harp part, there are a lot of cross staff notes, with the beam being placed mid-way between the two staves of the grand staff.

I'm finding that I am often confronted with situations that do not leave me enough space to place dynamics and hairpins.

I know I can move pedal changes to above or below the grand staff and they are still "correctly" placed (ie: remain relatively standard for harp notation),

But quite honestly, I'm not 100% sold on placing hairpins above the top staff or below the bottom staff, and yet this appears to be my only option.

Any suggestions?

I can always move dynamics over a bit, giving myself some room before notes (though I have a few spots where even this is not possible).
However if I leave the hairpins between the staves then they not only collide with the horizontal beam between the staves, but they then also cross all the up and down stems for those notes.

[Hector Pascal]

Hi Michel,
Sometimes I opt to use a combination of hairpins and (in places where it is a little tight) the equivalent textual indications which I can usually place without collisions;

cresc. or decresc.

And if sections repeat, I try to be consistent in my choices across the piece.

Good luck! I love writing for harp. Very satisfying when it's finished and worked out!

Cheerio,
Hector.

[OCTO]

I have seen hairpins crossing the staves in a crowded score, try that.

[MichelRE]

thanks guys.
I'd have used the text expressions but there's not much room for that either when the beams and stems are between the staves.
I'll have to post an image to give you an idea. I think that's the only way to contextualize the situation.

[MichelRE]

ok, he's one example of a tight spot.... I don't really see any place to insert even a "cresc." text mar between the two staves.

I mean, there IS space here and there, but I'd not be able to keep the "cresc." marking centered.

[John Ruggero]

You can place the hairpins under, over, between or even on top the staves depending on the situation. Check out

https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks ... metsEd.pdf

for guidance.

[MichelRE]

wow! that's actually a score I'd never really looked at before.
thanks for the reference.

I'd taken (while waiting for some sort of comment or confirmation) the approach of placing my hairpins and text above and below wherever there were most notes (ie: where the performer's eyes would be most likely concentrated) in the meantime.

so I guess I won't have to change much!

The only thing I still find troublesome is when a hairpin goes through a whole slew of stem lines... it creates this cross-hatch effect that I find a bit confusing to the eye. especially when a beam is relatively close to all the action.

[John Ruggero]

I don't like it either. Crossing stems and staff lines is the least good option. But there are times when it is the only option.

[MichelRE]

I don't like the either. Crossing stems and staff lines is the least good option. But there are times when it is the only option.

I have a couple of spots with harp glissandi in my viola concerto, starting quite low and going quite high.
I had to resort to a diagonal hairpin, going through the bottom staff, starting at the dynamic below that bottom staff, and ending between the staves of the grand staff.

It was either that or placing the hairpin straight across the middle intersecting the glissando line (and the word "gliss" at the same time). So it was the slightly lesser of two evils.

I've sort of avoided using angled (diagonal) hairpins. Particularly in orchestral scores as they will draw the eye to those items specifically, even when that isn't the important material on a page.

[Felipe Copaja]

Just in case it helps, when placing hairpins I never cross stems.

Felipe