Staff line thickenss - again.

[OCTO]

Here is an earlier thread:
https://notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51#p660

What I can see, Peter W and Wess use 0,1 spaces for staff lines, correct?
Than, what happens with reduced staff? Should it not be more bold?
If we have 0,67 cm staff size, what would be a good frame to have staff line sizes? 0,1 space is to low?

Just curious if I understand everything.

[benwiggy]

Having worked in publishing for many years, I can't follow discussions about line thicknesses in anything other than points.

My thinking is that staff lines are akin to graph paper. They are reference lines, and somewhat in the background, merely providing a guide for the notation. I therefore print them thinner than all other lines. My staff lines are 0.5pt. Stems are 0.625pt. Other lines are 0.75pt or 0.875pt.

I tried printing staff lines thicker, but I found it obscured the notes. Thinner staff lines make the notes more obvious.

(At a staff height of 24pt, 0.1 spaces is 0.6pt.)

[OCTO]

What are line thickness in different software by default? LP, Sibelius, Dorico?
In mm or similar.

For a stave of 6,7mm, line thickness 1,25sp - do you think it is thick?

[benwiggy]

This is a snippet from an old Finale forum discussion, which I've kept in my file:

In a Finale 2009 document, the default thicknesses are (all measurements in spaces):
Barlines: 0.14583
Heavy Barlines (i.e., Final Barlines): 0.5
Staff lines: 0.14583
Leger Lines: 0.14583
Stems: 0.14583

In a Sibelius 5 document:
Barlines: 0.16
Heavy Barlines (i.e., Final Barlines): 0.5
Staff lines: 0.1
Leger lines: 0.16
Stems: 0.1

So indeed, in Sibelius the defaults reflect a difference between the barline width and the staff line width, while in Finale, they do not.

In the Essential Dictionary of Music Notation (Alfred), for instance, they say that "the thickness of a barline is equal to, or greater than, the staff line thickness (staff lines being thicker than stems)." Re leger lines: "leger lines are the same line weight as staff lines, or slightly heavier."

Here are the same settings as they're found in Finale's 'European' document style.
Barlines: 0.1875
Heavy Barlines (i.e., Final Barlines): 0.5
Staff lines: 0.09375
Leger Lines: 0.1875
Stems: 0.09375

[OCTO]

Thank you, Ben!
As far as i remember, Finale had about 10 years ago very heavy staff/stem lines. Personally I disliked it, but recently, I think about v2011 or later, they changed it to very thin. Now, the default in 2014 is very thin.
Interesting, "European" style has more difference between lines, and also thinner staff lines.

What I am dealing now is perhaps for some other topic. Namely, I use Engraver font (for the first time complete, in order to safely deal with different copyists, and on different platforms), and I find that the larger noteheads in half note is less visible with thinner lines. Also I find that Maestro noteheads, being smaller, are more bold at distance, less needed to be enforced by heavier staff lines. Engraver half note have more white than Maestro half, therefore I need to "cover" them with bolder staff lines.
I am not pretty sure if it is correct way.

[tisimst]

Here are the default thicknesses for LilyPond and Dorico (all in staff-space units):

LilyPond
- Barlines: 0.19
- Heavy Barlines: 0.6
- Stafflines: 0.1
- Leger lines: 0.2
- Stems: 0.13

Dorico
- Barlines: 0.16
- Heavy Barlines: 0.5
- Stafflines: 0.13
- Leger lines: 0.16
- Stems: 0.12

[OCTO]

Thank you.

Dorico
- Barlines: 0.16
- Heavy Barlines: 0.5
- Stafflines: 0.13
- Leger lines: 0.16
- Stems: 0.12

Interesting, that is the first thing I noticed with Dorico – boldness.
I am not sure why Dorico uses different line thickness for staff and stems, was it by purpose?

[odod]

Thank you.

Dorico
- Barlines: 0.16
- Heavy Barlines: 0.5
- Stafflines: 0.13
- Leger lines: 0.16
- Stems: 0.12

Interesting, that is the first thing I noticed with Dorico – boldness.
I am not sure why Dorico uses different line thickness for staff and stems, was it by purpose?

IMO i think it's to match with bravura font .. just look at that font, everything is bold .. the rests and everything ..

Bravura.PNG (33.36 KiB) Viewed 11367 times

Maestro.PNG (34.82 KiB) Viewed 11367 times

Opus.PNG (32.96 KiB) Viewed 11367 times

[tisimst]

I just checked Dorico's settings and it looks like it had both stem and staff line thickness set to 0.13 (or 1/8) sp. I'll have to check the Bravura metadata to see why I thought the stem thickness was 0.12 (not that the eye can really tell).

I can't and don't speak for Daniel Spreadbury, but I'm pretty sure the thickness choices (indeed, all the engraving settings) are intentional to support the very substantial appearance of older scores of the hand engraved era. This is why Bravura is as bold and inky as it is. Seems only fitting that the rest of the settings do the same.

Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention is that LilyPond keeps the staff line thickness (the real thickness) the same regardless of the real size of a staff space. It just happens to be 0.1sp at the default 20pt staff size, which means that the real thickness is a consistent 0.5pt. This also stems from the hand engraved day when the scoring tool needed to have at least a certain thickness to be effective. Smaller staff sizes just meant that the prongs were closer together.

[odod]

I just checked Dorico's settings and it looks like it had both stem and staff line thickness set to 0.13 (or 1/8) sp. I'll have to check the Bravura metadata to see why I thought the stem thickness was 0.12 (not that the eye can really tell).

I can't and don't speak for Daniel Spreadbury, but I'm pretty sure the thickness choices (indeed, all the engraving settings) are intentional to support the very substantial appearance of older scores of the hand engraved era. This is why Bravura is as bold and inky as it is. Seems only fitting that the rest of the settings do the same.

Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention is that LilyPond keeps the staff line thickness (the real thickness) the same regardless of the real size of a staff space. It just happens to be 0.1sp at the default 20pt staff size, which means that the real thickness is a consistent 0.5pt. This also stems from the hand engraved day when the scoring tool needed to have at least a certain thickness to be effective. Smaller staff sizes just meant that the prongs were closer together.

well Noted sir Tisimst