[Dorico] Flat slurs

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Schonbergian
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Location: Toronto

Re: [Dorico] Flat slurs

Post by Schonbergian »

As unintuitive as it may sound, the larger noteheads actually aren't too large for the staff at all. It's well-known that round objects appear smaller than they are, and if they are left at the "correct" size the notes will just disappear into the background. This "overbleed" is practically ubiquitous in hand-engraved scores and helps to bring the notes back to the visual foreground.

It's a bit unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be a single program that can allow for the slur customization we need except for, perhaps, Illustrator (which is ultimately a workaround) I would normally agree with your reasoning about meeting the noteheads, but here I feel it would lead to too tapered of a slur, ultimately distracting from the musical contour at hand.

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John Ruggero
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Re: [Dorico] Flat slurs

Post by John Ruggero »

Schonbergian wrote:
28 Apr 2017, 11:51
As unintuitive as it may sound, the larger noteheads actually aren't too large for the staff at all. It's well-known that round objects appear smaller than they are, and if they are left at the "correct" size the notes will just disappear into the background. This "overbleed" is practically ubiquitous in hand-engraved scores and helps to bring the notes back to the visual foreground.
I think that there is a big difference between the accidental overbleed slightly observable in a few notes in the scan below from a modern hand engraved edition, and the intentional overflowing of the staff lines of every note head with the precision possible with a computer and laser printer. Th impression I get from the scan is that the notes are contained within the staff lines. The impression I get from benwiggy's example is that they are overflowing the staff lines.

In any case, if you are correct, then it follows that the notes of almost all computer engraving disappear into the background because the note heads do not bleed over. But that is not my experience. For me, computer engraving is clearer than the hand-engraving.
Noteheads hand-engraved.jpg
Noteheads hand-engraved.jpg (192.96 KiB) Viewed 4325 times
Schonbergian wrote:
28 Apr 2017, 11:51

I would normally agree with your reasoning about meeting the noteheads, but here I feel it would lead to too tapered of a slur, ultimately distracting from the musical contour at hand.
I am sorry, Schonbergian, I don't understand why the slur would be have to be more tapered than usual if brought to the note heads.
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Schonbergian
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Location: Toronto

Re: [Dorico] Flat slurs

Post by Schonbergian »

John Ruggero wrote:
28 Apr 2017, 14:59
I am sorry, Schonbergian, I don't understand why the slur would be have to be more tapered than usual if brought to the note heads.
In the example that you provided and engraved, the slur doesn't quite reach the noteheads and it's already quite curved. Making it reach the noteheads at any cost would lead to an unnaturally curved slur.

benwiggy
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Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 19:42

Re: [Dorico] Flat slurs

Post by benwiggy »

John Ruggero wrote:
28 Apr 2017, 14:59
The impression I get from benwiggy's example is that they are overflowing the staff lines.
I've checked this, and it seems to be a screen artefact. At 500% zoom, the noteheads seem to have gained a little fatness which is not present at other zoom levels - larger and smaller. As said, I use Engraver at 24pt.

When an object's size falls between two pixels, the OS has to decide whether to round up or round down - or more usually, they do shaded hinting to smooth the edges.

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odod
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Re: [Dorico] Flat slurs

Post by odod »

Screen Shot 2020-09-10 at 16.42.49.png
i took the chance with Dorico, it maybe not perfect but it is easier than in Sibelius .. different workflow is killing me
LogicX, Cubase 5, MacMini i7, Macbook Pro 2015, PowerMac G5, Sibelius 8, Finale, Musescore, Reaper, Apogee Duet, Universal Audio Apollo Twin MKII, FontLab, tons of Faith and Prayers

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Den
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Joined: 06 Feb 2020, 13:14

Re: [Dorico] Flat slurs

Post by Den »

odod wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 09:43
Screen Shot 2020-09-10 at 16.42.49.png

i took the chance with Dorico, it maybe not perfect but it is easier than in Sibelius .. different workflow is killing me
Slurs example with Igor

GIF
Slurs-Igor.gif
JPG
Igor-Slurs.jpg

Compare note spacing in Dorico and in Igor.
I put different slurs thick in this example

or this
FlatSlur3.png
or
FlatSlur4.png

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odod
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Re: [Dorico] Flat slurs

Post by odod »

i was surprised that Igor had this options ages ago ... what do you think Igor VS Graphire ?
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Den
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Re: [Dorico] Flat slurs

Post by Den »

odod wrote:
11 Sep 2020, 00:22
i was surprised that Igor had this options ages ago ... what do you think Igor VS Graphire ?
I like both. You can add "nested slurs" and some "extension" lines and vice versa, you got slurs with minimum tweak just like in my short examples.
In Dorico.....in Dor..... ... :roll: please read again my posts about Dorico here on forum...
Every program have different possibilities. Every program have weakness, bugs etc.
With both Igor and Graphire you can notate all classic notation, and more like hmmm "hand-engraving scores" ,
if you need some special design you can do this and export from Igor score 1:1 to EPS file or from Graphire Music Press and just add what you need in DTP program (Illustrator etc.) or change all. Good programs with good logic in mind and functions, but need experimenting and learning all.
I always thought I had tried most of the features in Igor Engraver and Music Press (Graphire), and then something different comes to my mind so I start experimenting and in the end I surprise myself after so many years that some things are still possible and simple! For what I can do with them, I personally don't need some big exhibitions and big miracles in notation. What is much more important to me is that as you can tell from my GIF examples, it is not how much, but "how". Some things is harder and some is simple, I can calm souls now that I have already tried many things in Dorico say for older programs that they are much more useful than Dorico himself. For me, Dorico is, after all, just another "solidly good score notation program" that needs to mature a lot in everything, especially in the work logic, which unfortunately does not exist. In this old programs logic is straight in mind, simple and the working logic is exactly as in the GIF examples, nothing less nothing more.
Cue-Igor.gif

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Den
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Joined: 06 Feb 2020, 13:14

Re: [Dorico] Flat slurs

Post by Den »

odod wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 09:43
i took the chance with Dorico, it maybe not perfect but it is easier than in Sibelius .. different workflow is killing me
Also in Igor , (like in Dorico Workflows), >not exist!
Everything is directly on one Page, everything is stright on page, just go to object , click directly on object and functions, move, slide, edit, change, delete, add directly! - with smooth fast logical editing. Try move barline in Dorico....try add notes, add 8va and continue to last bar, etc.etc.
Same options in Dorico is veryyyyy slo....forget it! Please, forget. Also Dorico killing mind logic and ....and.... forget what I say.
Just continue with Dorico and see everything. Finale have better customisation on every object on page.

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odod
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Joined: 25 Nov 2015, 15:10

Re: [Dorico] Flat slurs

Post by odod »

Den wrote:
11 Sep 2020, 01:49
odod wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 09:43
i took the chance with Dorico, it maybe not perfect but it is easier than in Sibelius .. different workflow is killing me
Also in Igor , (like in Dorico Workflows), >not exist!
Everything is directly on one Page, everything is stright on page, just go to object , click directly on object and functions, move, slide, edit, change, delete, add directly! - with smooth fast logical editing. Try move barline in Dorico....try add notes, add 8va and continue to last bar, etc.etc.
Same options in Dorico is veryyyyy slo....forget it! Please, forget. Also Dorico killing mind logic and ....and.... forget what I say.
Just continue with Dorico and see everything. Finale have better customisation on every object on page.
i completely agree with you that Dorico is killing mind logic ... painful to learn .. i still prefer Sibelius and Finale for their workflow ... luckily i did the crossgrade and still able to use my Sibelius for wok, one thing i notice that Dorico's capability on importing XML is really superior as well
LogicX, Cubase 5, MacMini i7, Macbook Pro 2015, PowerMac G5, Sibelius 8, Finale, Musescore, Reaper, Apogee Duet, Universal Audio Apollo Twin MKII, FontLab, tons of Faith and Prayers

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