Dorico v Finale advice?

[David Ward]

I feel that I should probably attempt to learn how to use Dorico, sooner rather than later.

Question: would I - aged 82 - be sensible to attempt this by ‘engraving’ a moderately large photocopy manuscript score from my past (finished in 1988)?

Details: the score in question is 2,400 bars, ≤100 minutes, for seven solo vocal roles, 2 x SATB chorus, children's unison chorus (briefly), and an orchestra of about 55–70 (depending on how full are the strings). Staves are used in a variety of ways in my manuscript eg the four horns may be on 1, 2, 3 or 4 staves variously arranged, eg when on 2 staves the order might be 1, 2 and 3, 4 or it might be 1, 3 and 2, 4. The strings are in multiple permutations eg at one point the cellos are divided into three solo players, each with their own stave, plus a fourth stave for gli altri.

I sort of know how to attempt this in Finale, so my question is how difficult might it be in Dorico?

The piece was not staged at the time because of personnel changes at the medium house which was originally interested, plus (as far as others were concerned) its not coinciding with the then theatrical fashions. The only part to have been performed occasionally is the 13 minute orchestral prelude to Act 3 https://composers-uk.com/davidward/wp-c ... de.mp3?_=4 here played by the BBC Scottish SO with Jerzy Maksymiuk. (BTW I have a clear vision for what should be happening on stage during this rather long ‘instrumental’.)

The librettist for the piece, NZ poet Kevin Ireland, died in May https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/a ... 5ezyMuwle4 so I feel that in his memory I should revisit the piece, especially as fashions have changed.

Anyway, would I be able to pick up enough about Dorico as I go along, given my current reasonable fluency in Finale, to undertake this moderately large (but not huge) project as an exercise in learning (if not actually mastering) Dorico?

Or should I just stick to what I already think I know (Finale)?

[MichelRE]

the only thing I see as a "difficulty" for you is that your project involves varied vocal lines. I haven't worked with lyrics yet nor choral or solo lines, but have read that they can be trickier to work with.

my first Dorico project was a 20 minute violin concerto. the first week was...difficult as I got used to the way D does things, and worked out getting rid of automatic muscle-memory built p from 30 years of Finale usage.
The violin concerto was a VERY standard and uncomplicated score. The only thing it had that was mildly "out there" was that the cadenzas have no barlines.
Honestly, for this Dorico was an absolute dream come true. It handles creating just one long measure beautifully.

but I got the score and parts out in around 3 weeks. mostly because I was making errors in how I was approaching Dorico.

If your score requires any sort of special formatting (ie: did it require work-arounds in Finale?) then it MIGHT be challenging as a first work to enter in Dorico.
I'd suggest a shorter, more standard work as your "Dorico 101" homework.

[Fred G. Unn]

Staves are used in a variety of ways in my manuscript eg the four horns may be on 1, 2, 3 or 4 staves variously arranged, eg when on 2 staves the order might be 1, 2 and 3, 4 or it might be 1, 3 and 2, 4.

I would definitely tackle a smaller project first. My very first Dorico project was a pretty simple score reduction. Next I wrote a big band arrangement that I somewhat unusually had an entire month to write, so I decided to give it a try. The program was very different back then (Dorico 2.x something) but I definitely hit some roadblocks where it worked very differently than Finale.

The Horn layout is quite customizable in Dorico though. You'll probably add all 4 of them to a custom Condensing group, and then add Condensing changes as needed later in the project as you work on layout. It takes a bit of time, but is actually quite easy to do.



The above staff structure was just done with Condensing changes. Everything will still appear normally in Galley view and in the parts. You can combine the horns in any manner you choose and both score and parts will still be correct. In Finale, I always ended up with "score" and "score for parts" files when I did stuff like this.

[David Ward]

Thank you both for your advice.

Fred, would ‘Condensing Change’ be a possible way of dealing with Michel's problem here viewtopic.php?t=990? It looks like a very useful facility, but no doubt it has its limitations.

My smaller scale projects of the moment all seem to be ‘art songs’ for voice and piano, for which I have an effective Finale template which I'd prefer not to leave until I have to. Despite my being mildly ancient, I still tend to hurl myself at things, so I *may* ignore the good advice of both of you and hurl myself at attempting this larger project in Dorico. I'll only have myself to blame if it fails.

Anyway, for now I'm undecided, and will welcome any further advice on the subject and relevant information about how Dorico might handle it.

As for me and Dorico, I'm beginning to suspect that Die Zeit ist da, but then I hear Klingsor singing those words (Parsifal Act 2), and look what happened to him…

[Fred G. Unn]

Fred, would ‘Condensing Change’ be a possible way of dealing with Michel's problem here viewtopic.php?t=990? It looks like a very useful facility, but no doubt it has its limitations.

I don't think so. I think it's a current limitation of condensing when doubling players are involved. If I specify that in the Condensing change dialog, I don't actually get it in the score.



Neera's workaround with an additional player and manual staff visibility is probably the way I would end up doing it too, if I needed a Picc doubler above the Flutes.

[John Ruggero]

Before you start your big project in Dorico, it might be good to do a short test with something that uses smaller forces, like a song. The interface is quite different from Finale, and while fairly "intuitive", does take some getting used to.

[Fred G. Unn]

I still tend to hurl myself at things, so I *may* ignore the good advice of both of you and hurl myself at attempting this larger project in Dorico. I'll only have myself to blame if it fails.

If you do decide to just jump in with a larger project, I would at least work through their published "First Steps" guide first. It will get you oriented with the program and acquainted with the various commands and workflows. Any time spent with the First Steps guide will almost certainly be recovered later when you don't have to do a zillion searches of the manual to figure out some essential keycommands and workflow tips.
https://steinberg.help/dorico-manuals/d ... t-steps-5/

[MichelRE]

and keep a little notebook next to you, and write in every shortcut you learn.
trust me, it will help immensely!

[benwiggy]

Anyway, would I be able to pick up enough about Dorico as I go along, given my current reasonable fluency in Finale, to undertake this moderately large (but not huge) project as an exercise in learning (if not actually mastering) Dorico?

Or should I just stick to what I already think I know (Finale)?

I'd caution against trying to 'pick it up as you go along' without some introduction. There are loads of short tutorial videos (as well as hour-long 'deep' sessions) which are well worth sitting through with a cup of tea (and biscuits), which at the very least will give you a feel for how Dorico works, the processes involved and the methods it uses.

Dorico is more structured and organised than Finale, so you'll need to think similarly -- there's no "Oh, I can just re-use this Soprano staff as an additional trumpet for these two pages", or "I'll use an Expression as a fake time signature", or whatever.

Divisi strings (and choir) is a piece of cake. You may run into some obstacles in other areas, which may require more effort to 'workaround' than in Finale.

The general approach with Dorico is "try to do less". If you find yourself fighting the program, and trying to do lots of manual interventions, then usually there's an easier way.

But I commend your spirit in wanting to give it a try. Do feel free to ask me anything.

[MichelRE]

1st piece of advice: absolutely completely forego ANY desire to do any layout work before you have finished entering notes.

Dorico, by default, does a very good job laying out material for you. Don't move measures, change page layouts, hide or remove staves, etc... until you have absolutely entered ALL notes and lyrics and expressions.

once all of that is entered, enter cues.

Then and only then should you start looking at moving measures from one system to another, or hiding staves or whatnot.