NOTATIO

Thanks so much, tisimst. I must admit that I have trouble imagining how I would shape slurs without a graphical interface! But I understand that there is one for LilyPond. Is that what you use? Or does this just become second nature?

For what it's worth (not much, perhaps) I don't feel much distaste for slurs (and certain other things) crossing accidentals (and again, certain other things). There seems to me to be a world of difference between crossing and colliding. If a dynamic and an accidental were to collide, both might be rendered illegible; but if a slur passes through the stem(?) of an accidental, this may have no effect whatsoever on legibility, or it may indeed make things a little easier to read if it helps the placing or shape of the slur.

I'm certainly not a professional music engraver, nor do I aspire to be one, but I do have many decades (I'm now 75) of both reading and writing music as my principal activity in life.

Just another vote firmly on the side of Knut allowing the slur to cross the stem of a flat. Never the bowl, of course! To a lesser extent the stems of a natural can be crossed by a slur or tie without reducing legibility. Sharps you can’t cross because there isn’t enough room. To my eye crossing is actually easier to read than touching the tip. I would allow crossing only as deep as the middle of the stem of the accidental (as Knut’s example illustrates).

John Ruggero wrote:Thanks so much, tisimst. I must admit that I have trouble imagining how I would shape slurs without a graphical interface! But I understand that there is one for LilyPond. Is that what you use? Or does this just become second nature?

Well, the long of the short is that there isn't a *true* GUI for LilyPond, nor do I think there ever will be. There are some handy front-ends that attempt to bring in some of that graphical ability to one degree or another. Personally, I prefer to use Frescobaldi[1] as my LilyPond UI for lots of reasons I won't expound here. However, relative to this thread, there is a compilation option to display all control points in the compiled score. When you do need to manually modify the control points, this is, naturally, VERY helpful. You do get accustomed to this way of working.

Another front-end called Denemo[2], provides the most GUI-like interaction when editing slurs without actually grabbing and moving the curve (essentially, you adjust an overlayed curve and it adds the tweaked control point positions like I mentioned before).

[1] http://frescobaldi.org/
[2] http://www.denemo.org/

I am still pondering my own definition of centering the tip of a slur. In the diagram, the first measure shows slur tips that are perpendicularly over the middle of the note head; but the fourth beat shows an issue with this definition. The second measure shows what I have always considered to be centered slur tips: the tangent to the end of the slur runs through the middle of the note head.

John Ruggero wrote:I am still pondering my own definition of centering the tip of a slur. In the diagram, the first measure shows slur tips that are perpendicularly over the middle of the note head; but the fourth beat shows an issue with this definition. The second measure shows what I have always considered to be centered slur tips: the tangent to the end of the slur runs through the middle of the note head.

Slur direction.jpg

I prefer over the center.

John Ruggero wrote: The second measure shows what I have always considered to be centered slur tips: the tangent to the end of the slur runs through the middle of the note head.

I was about to be dismissive along the lines of ‘does it really matter?’ but then when I look properly, I very much prefer the principle of the tangent centre, it DOES look noticeably better to my particular non-engraver's eye. Unfortunately, unless they become the software defaults, there is no imminent likelihood of my applying these principles to my own work - I have enough trouble making sure that I write the right notes … …

Still, it's fascinating to read, and occasionally to throw my oar into, these discussions, and I do feel that I learn something useful from them.

John Ruggero wrote:Sorry, Knut. I realize now that I have a different definition of centering slur tips than the usual one. What I meant was that if the slur shape were continued on to actually contact the note head, it would touch it in the center.

Ah, I see! I would use the tangent centre, or even the side of the notehead, in special circumstances, but normally, I think the vertical centre is fine.

John Ruggero wrote:I should have said that I know that engravers of many generations have been very liberal in allowing slurs to cross accidentals and that I may be a minority of one on this. Your case is the most justifiable one that I can think of, but even in that case, I would prefer it as in your first measure, or as follows, allowing the slur to cross the flat with nothing showing through above. And the size of the accidental could even be reduced a little as shown:

Considering your philosophy, I understand your approach. One additional factor to keep in mind is of course the length of the flat symbol's stem, which may vary quite a bit from font to font. (The Maestro flat is somewhat shorter than my own, while the Engraver font has an even taller flat symbol.) As MJCube implies, it is usually longer than the stems of both the natural and the sharp, and as a consequence, it is usually more 'vulnerable' to collisions.

Hi, David! It is always great to hear what an experienced musician has to say on any musical subject. My feeling about slur-accidental intersection is based more on aesthetics than readability. I myself am still not sure which kind of slur centering I prefer. It may be situational, as Knut mentioned.

Thanks for the information, tisimst. I knew about that other software but wondered whether and how it figured in the work-flow of an experienced LilyPond engraver.

OCTO, and Knut, the more I look into the center issue, the more complex it becomes and related to slur curvature, length, and context. It is probably best that Finale does vertical centering, because the majority of cases turn out OK.

The slurs in my trusty hand-engraved Henle Beethoven Violin Sonatas seem to conform to no rule except the engraver's fancy. Some tips are vertically centered, others over the outer edges of the note groups, the inner edges, or beyond the outer edges; a few are tangentially centered and many start or end in no particular location at all. Here is a case where I prefer Finale's consistency to the hand engraver's inconsistency.

Knut, yes, those pesky flats that seem come often on the next-to-last note of slurred passages such as the one that OCTO. cleverly posed as a challenge! I wish that Finale allowed control over the stem height of individual flats. Or maybe it does?

Does anyone allow slurs to pass through elements like note stems? I have a pet peeve about slurs that pass in the midst of stacked piano fingering.