A modern looking score in 2018?

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odod
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Re: A modern looking score in 2018?

Post by odod » 29 Jun 2018, 23:36

trying to remake the piece, but i didn't got the chance to type the lyrics :(
just a comparative for the text style

edited : with lyric
The Star.png
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Last edited by odod on 30 Jun 2018, 11:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Schonbergian
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Re: A modern looking score in 2018?

Post by Schonbergian » 30 Jun 2018, 01:50

teacue wrote:
28 Jun 2018, 10:40
If you mean with "everywhere else in music" you mean the vast majority of printed music scores then of course I agree completely with you that anything different from what is used everywhere will first look different and it can indeed lead to some people shouting "How on earth do you dare to change this sanctuary?"
But should this really matter?
I am glad that todays fashion for men does not dicate to wear a ruff like in the XVI-XVII century ;-)
I also do not really appreciate ties but well everybody should wear what he/she likes.
Fashion changes, art also and there is always someone who does not like the style of a new painter, of a new composer, the smell of a new perfume, a new dress, a new word, a new music font ...
Are these changes usefull?
I don't know, sometimes, sometimes not, and in fact I don't care as I find new colors, new smells, new forms, new music great and joy and fun and a nice looking new music font would be really great :-)
Honestly I can't understand that I even have to write this.
Things are changing, there is nothing wrong with this.
But things haven't changed in the way you're saying they do. When they've done so, it's been on the basis of readability or very slight cosmetic changes rather than a sea change in the way everything is presented. The few examples that buck these trends are practically universally abhorred because of the additional demands they place on the reader for no real gain. The fashion example isn't relevant because the look of a piece or set of clothing has almost nothing to do with its functionality - whereas any huge changes to music notation in the name of looks have an immediate adverse effect on the readability of the score.

As a professional singer, I found all of the lyric text in your sans-serif examples to be much harder on the eyes and more difficult to grasp at a distance than the serif examples. I liked the example with your condensed text best (however, this design decision is nothing new, especially when it comes to lyrics) and thought it looked modern but readable at the same time. I don't see the need to go beyond that.

Again, I prefer very traditional scores but find great beauty in the more 21st-century examples presented by members here. There is a significant range of expression within the idiom you deem "baroque" - I just don't understand why going further is necessary.

teacue
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Re: A modern looking score in 2018?

Post by teacue » 30 Jun 2018, 07:13

@odod
Oh, Amazing, what a great font!
It looks like Optima or Zapf Humanist.
Now my score has the chance to be engraved by an engraver who really knows his stuff! :-)
I need more time to have a deeper look and to answer but in case you need the lyrics, here they are:

Sieh, endlich
es ist Zeit,
erhebe dich!

Nichts hält dich mehr zurück,
du bist frei.
Komm, hab keine Angst.

Die Worte sind nichts mehr.
Die Schreie tun nichts mehr.
Dein Herz erwacht
und dein Leben fängt jetzt neu an.

Ein Stern so allein,
die Hoffnung so nah,
ein Stern, dem du folgen kannst,
ein Licht, dass dich auch wärmen kann.

Und nichts hält dich mehr auf.
Und nichts kann dich mehr stör’n.
Du gehst, so hell und so stolz,
so frei in das Licht.

Ein (Stern so allein,
die Hoffnung so nah,
ein Stern, dem du folgen kannst,
ein Licht, dass dich auch wärmen kann,
auch wärmen kann,
auch wärmen kann.)

(The part in parenthesis is on page two of the score)

I would also gladly send you the score in Finale or XML but as you now have made most of the work, so it is probably unnecessary.

@Schonbergian
Thanks for your thoughts.
I also need more time to answer and I will do later.
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OCTO
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Re: A modern looking score in 2018?

Post by OCTO » 30 Jun 2018, 09:47

My final thought: changing the fonts does not result in getting more contemporary outlook of a score. It can be just different.
The notation is written symbolic language, thus small omissions can have a great impact on the language. As a written language the notation describes sound or music, and sound or music can be contemporary or not.
Similarly to Lisp or Python, changing the fonts you will not get more advanced Lisp or Python, neither more advanced or contemporary look.

Add:
teacue wrote:
28 Jun 2018, 11:53
But I sometimes just wonder how do the professionals are working?
They must surely work longer than a few minutes
The professional engravers do not change fonts frequently, they use usually just one set of the fonts. Furthermore they pay attention to balance of all objects on the page, conforming the engraving rules. <- That is really difficult.
Last edited by OCTO on 30 Jun 2018, 18:30, edited 1 time in total.
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odod
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A modern looking score in 2018?

Post by odod » 30 Jun 2018, 12:07

OCTO wrote:
30 Jun 2018, 09:47
My final thought: changing the fonts does not result in getting more contemporary outlook of a score. It can be just different.
The notation is a written symbolic language, thus small omissions can have a great impact of the language. As a written language the notation describes the sound or music, and sound or music can be contemporary or not.
Similarly to Lisp or Python, changing the fonts you will not get more advanced Lisp or Python, neither more advanced or contemporary look.
The professional engravers do not change fonts frequently, they use usually just one set of the fonts. Furthermore they pay attention to balance of all objects on the page, conforming the engraving rules. <- That is really difficult.
indeed .. as i mention before, not merely about fonts.

@teacue
Sir i already edited the score .. i hope it’s good enough ;) greetings
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liuscorne
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Re: A modern looking score in 2018?

Post by liuscorne » 06 Jul 2018, 23:37

I saw this and thought of this thread:

http://dreibholz.com/berlin-philharmonic-notation/

Here is a video explaining the reason behind the project:

https://www.coloribus.com/adsarchive/co ... /22950015/

I wonder if the font has ever been used in real life. And I wonder what members of the orchestra think about sentences like these:
"What makes strong brands easily recognisable? A unique corporate font. The Berlin Philharmonic play music like no one else. But they write music like all other orchestras. That's why we give them them the first corporate notation font."

Schonbergian
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Re: A modern looking score in 2018?

Post by Schonbergian » 07 Jul 2018, 01:30

That font looks like something out of a music book for 5-year-olds, and it makes Opus look like the heaviest thing on the block.

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odod
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Re: A modern looking score in 2018?

Post by odod » 07 Jul 2018, 06:12

Lol .. schonbergian .. agree with you
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teacue
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Re: A modern looking score in 2018?

Post by teacue » 11 Jul 2018, 10:19

Here is an example of a 4-parts vocal score.
Each score uses only one typeface either normal or condensed.
Lyrics and staff labels have a condensed width to allow at least three bars per staff.
A normal width would allow only two bars per staff.

The Garamond score looks quite good to me and if I was not in search of a less old style look this would be probably my first choice for a classical style:

bald-garamond.jpg
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I like the Swiss score and because of the greater x-height, it is for me the most readable one but the condensed width added to the greater x-height makes this font looking possibly too vertical:

bald-swiss.jpg
bald-swiss.jpg (1.16 MiB) Viewed 668 times

The Zurich score feels nicer but the smaller x-height makes it (to me) a little less readable than the Swiss one:

bald-zurich.jpg
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The Humanist score is the result of an unfinished experiment.
As I do not own any semi-serif font with a condensed width I edited the Zapf Humanist font I own to make a condensed version.
Though I mainly followed Walter Tracy's methode for spacing it seems I made it a little too tight, I also think that the letters stems could be a tad thicker. But doing such editing can take quite a long time and I don't know when I can finish this.
This is why I upload an unfinished version, at least it gives an idea on how a condensed semi serif font could work.
I find the result quite pleasant and concerning text this is aproximately what I mean with "more modern".
I believe it is worth to further experiment in this direction:

bald-humanist.jpg
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teacue
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Re: A modern looking score in 2018?

Post by teacue » 11 Jul 2018, 11:26

OCTO wrote:Trying to many fonts is like working at a perfume store. After some time you can't truly feel any perfume and distinguish it clearly.
teacue wrote: But I sometimes just wonder how do the professionals are working?
They must surely work longer than a few minutes
OCTO wrote:The professional engravers do not change fonts frequently, they use usually just one set of the fonts. Furthermore they pay attention to balance of all objects on the page, conforming the engraving rules. <- That is really difficult.
Thanks for this comment to my comment but as you can see above my comment was about the professional perfumers you first mentioned ;)

***

@Schonbergian
After thinking about it I have the feeling that it does not make really much sense for me to try again to explain my view.
We seem to have very different opinions on matters concerning a wide context exceeding the scope of this forum.
And I assume that none of us will succeed to change the opinion of the other.
I suggest then that we let the part about why things are changing or if things should change.

Readability
I think readability is a very subjective matter.
In my professional activities during 25 years I had to direct choirs and singers and as I previously mentioned I could better read the sans serif fonts but honestly the differences were never so considerable that I had to ever think about it!
Also at some points you know what is written and you do not deciffer each time what you are working on.
On the other side there were situations during rehearsals where it was for me much more important to follow on a score who is singing than what is being sung.
So I added sometimes very big labels on the score in order to better follow all the characters because for these particular situations the lyrics were not important but the character labels were.
Until a score is played there are a lot of different situations with very different needs.

I also think that the debate about readability of notation can sometimes be something like "Meckern auf hohen Niveau" as the germans says (complaining at a high level).
But again what you may consider as better readable is possibly the contrary of what I consider to be better readable, so it seems as if here it is also difficult to find a universal rule.

Maybe this: assuming music notation and text is written in a not too big or not too small size, in a not too fancy or trashed style, in a not too exceptional color and if the thickness is wether too thin or too thick then everything goes and should be readable for almost everyone.
Now if the overall look is pleasing for everyone is of course a completely different matter :)
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