More Dorico updates!

Recommendations concerning notation and publishing software in a non-partisan environment.
Florian
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Re: More Dorico updates!

Post by Florian » 02 Dec 2018, 09:20

John Ruggero wrote:
01 Dec 2018, 22:45
However, it wasn't clear to me from the review that it is possible to notate several alternate fingerings above the notes separated by lines. In some cases, three or four sets of fingering might need to be stacked. Fingering is also placed both above and below the notes and within the staff lines. In short, editors of piano music need complete control over the position of finger numbers, elision symbols, and extension lines.
John, as far as I know the only improvement to the fingering feature in 2.2 is that you can advance the popover during input. There are no changes to how fingerings are notated.
The capabilities of the symbol editor were not completely clear to me in the video. Can one actually alter the shape of the Bravura glyphs to incorporate features from other fonts? It did appear that I might replace the Bravura treble clef with my own treble clef as a graphic, avoiding the need to convert it to SMuFL-compliant format. This is very appealing.
You can indeed alter any music symbol in such a way that it uses another glyph from any given font or a graphic.

benwiggy
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Re: More Dorico updates!

Post by benwiggy » 02 Dec 2018, 12:41

John Ruggero wrote:
01 Dec 2018, 22:45
editors of piano music need complete control over the position of finger numbers, elision symbols, and extension lines.
John, if you haven't already, I would certainly contact the Dorico team about your needs. Another asset of the application is that the developers are receptive, responsive, and candid about current limitations and future developments.

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John Ruggero
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Re: More Dorico updates!

Post by John Ruggero » 02 Dec 2018, 13:41

Benwiggy, it is clear that the Dorico team has an ideal relationship with users and is very responsive to most requests. However, in this case, less so.

Several months ago I described how difficult is was to accomplish complex piano fingering in Dorico with an example: https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=131380
You can read Daniel's response there. I did not find it encouraging.

I posted again at Notatio, with a response from Daniel at Notatio. He wanted to understand the steps necessary to accomplish this in Finale. I showed how it is done. There was no further response. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=386&start=40

Having just finished a big project in Finale, I am eager to try the next in Dorico, particularly since it appears from what Florian said, that I can tailor the glyphs to my needs, but I am dead in the water because of the fingering issue.

However, I have no doubt that Dorico will eventually have the capabilities I need, because publishers of edited piano music will not be able to use Dorico without using awkward workarounds or taking files into other applications.
Last edited by John Ruggero on 02 Dec 2018, 17:34, edited 1 time in total.
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OCTO
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Re: More Dorico updates!

Post by OCTO » 02 Dec 2018, 14:52

John Ruggero wrote:
01 Dec 2018, 22:45
editors of piano music need complete control over the position of finger numbers, elision symbols, and extension lines.
How do you enter these numbers now? I see that it could be a problem if one tries to create systematized (to say algorithm) for fingering,it is to wide issue.

The only way I see is to create a fingering symbols that can be used as a font, including slurs (fragmentary).

Eventually, Dorico could develop a slur that can be attached only to the fingering symbols.
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John Ruggero
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Re: More Dorico updates!

Post by John Ruggero » 02 Dec 2018, 17:33

OCTO wrote:
02 Dec 2018, 14:52
How do you enter these numbers now? etc.
OCTO, I think I answered your question about my method of adding fingering with an example at:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=386&start=40
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=386&start=50

As far as I know, given the response to my query, Dorico still lacks the ability to overlay several independent sets of finger numbers either directly over one another or on either side of the notes by use of their fingering tool. It also lacks the ability to draw straight lines to separate such stacks of finger numbers without an awkward workaround. I would hope that the use of the elision symbol is now less awkward, but don't really know that either. I found the use of longer finger slurs problematic but possible.

In any case, I am not looking for anything sophisticated, but simply the ability to enter standard piano fingering in Dorico in a way that is not impossibly time-consuming. I am sure that a very elegant solution will be forthcoming, but until then, I will be forced to continue with Finale.
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OCTO
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Re: More Dorico updates!

Post by OCTO » 02 Dec 2018, 18:01

I think your way to enter it is very efficient, and I don't know how quicker it would be to enter these.
Once more we have to agree that the music notation is a complex system and a lot of manual intervention is needed.
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mducharme
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Re: More Dorico updates!

Post by mducharme » 02 Dec 2018, 22:14

I have switched to using Dorico in recent months instead of Sibelius, and I think its biggest weakness for my workflow is the inability to draw lines and arrows without resorting to the workaround putting a slur above the stave and closing the ends. To draw horizontal arrows, I have to combine the slur with a bow overpressure symbol that resembles an arrowhead, blowing up the overpressure symbol to 150%, and aligning it with the end of the collapsed slur. This is a rather awkward process in a score where I use many such arrows for transitions from ord. to sul pont. and things like that. Also the number of tremolo marks changing by itself if a passage is shifted so that it is syncopated is also not very desirable. However it saves me time in many other ways so I am willing to put up with those things.

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John Ruggero
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Re: More Dorico updates!

Post by John Ruggero » 03 Dec 2018, 04:18

OCTO wrote:
02 Dec 2018, 18:01
I think your way to enter it is very efficient, and I don't know how quicker it would be to enter these.
Thank you, OCTO. I would even be happy if Dorico could do almost as well as Finale, so I could make use of the many ways in which it apparently surpasses Finale.
OCTO wrote:
02 Dec 2018, 18:01
Once more we have to agree that the music notation is a complex system and a lot of manual intervention is needed.
I sometimes wonder if the Dorico developers completely understood at the beginning of their work just how complex music notation really is. If not, they probably do now!
mducharme wrote:
02 Dec 2018, 22:14
I have switched to using Dorico in recent months instead of Sibelius, and I think its biggest weakness for my workflow is the inability to draw lines and arrows without resorting to the workaround putting a slur above the stave and closing the ends. To draw horizontal arrows, I have to combine the slur with a bow overpressure symbol that resembles an arrowhead, blowing up the overpressure symbol to 150%, and aligning it with the end of the collapsed slur. This is a rather awkward process in a score where I use many such arrows for transitions from ord. to sul pont. and things like that. Also the number of tremolo marks changing by itself if a passage is shifted so that it is syncopated is also not very desirable. However it saves me time in many other ways so I am willing to put up with those things
Thanks for your comment, mducharme. The fact that Dorico cannot yet do lines and other graphic elements probably means that the developers are working on a definitive solution that involves a much more powerful graphic capability than has yet appeared in music notation software. I eagerly await this solution so that I too can begin to use Dorico. Unfortunately, fingering is such a major part of what I do in editing piano music that workarounds such as what you describe would be impossible.
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OCTO
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Re: More Dorico updates!

Post by OCTO » 03 Dec 2018, 10:35

mducharme wrote:
02 Dec 2018, 22:14
...I think its biggest weakness for my workflow is the inability to draw lines and arrows without resorting to the workaround putting a slur above the stave and closing the ends. To draw horizontal arrows, I have to combine the slur with a bow overpressure symbol that resembles an arrowhead, blowing up the overpressure symbol to 150%, and aligning it with the end of the collapsed slur. This is a rather awkward process in a score where I use many such arrows for transitions from ord. to sul pont. and things like that.
Well, that is pretty huge issue! I complain that to MuseScore. A notation software should be able to draw any line (InkScape-kind with numerous settings) and if not any curve (also similar to InkScape). In all notation software we can make workarounds, but that is not the way a software should "think".
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John Ruggero
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Re: More Dorico updates!

Post by John Ruggero » 04 Dec 2018, 22:08

OCTO wrote:
03 Dec 2018, 10:35
A notation software should be able to draw any line (InkScape-kind with numerous settings) and if not any curve (also similar to InkScape)
I agree with you completely, OCTO. The notation software we are all looking for would have advanced graphic as well as advanced typographic capabilities. One hopes that Dorico will be developed to that point and not stall somewhere short of it like all of its predecessors.
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