Various Line Settings

Discuss the rules of notation, standard notation practices, efficient notation practices and graphic design.
Peter West
Posts: 129
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:26
Location: Cornwall, England
Contact:

Re: Various Line Settings

Post by Peter West » 15 Nov 2015, 11:08

OK, I understand your logic, but if I remove the full sized staff so that only the staff with a 50% staff reduction remains, spacing still works according to the page/system reduction, not the staff reduction.

While this has a logic to it, it is worth remembering.

Music spacing is not scaled according to STAFF reduction
Finale 2008/9/10/11/12/14, Sibelius 6/7.5, In Design CC 2015, Illustrator CS4

Knut
Posts: 867
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:07
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Various Line Settings

Post by Knut » 15 Nov 2015, 11:20

Peter West wrote:While this has a logic to it, it is worth remembering.
No argument there!
Peter West wrote:Music spacing is not scaled according to STAFF reduction
Not in a setting of mixed staff sizes, no. Otherwise, however, it is scaled according to the settings in the page layout tool but not the resize tool.

Peter West
Posts: 129
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:26
Location: Cornwall, England
Contact:

Re: Various Line Settings

Post by Peter West » 15 Nov 2015, 11:56

I don't think your last point is right. I made a file with a single staff at 50% STAFF reduction and 100% page and system reduction, set spacing to q = 6 and spaced the bar of quarter notes. In scroll view they showed 6 spaces, in page view they showed 12 spaces. If I respace in page view it makes no difference.

It seems that it's nothing to do with a mixture of staff sizes (where one might logically expect the largest staff to be the scale for spacing). When the staff is only reduced using a staff reduction, the combination of page and system reductions override the staff reduction.

Using the resize tool to scale the page or the system has exactly the same effect as resizing them with the page layout tool in this regard. The issue here is quite clearly that when the resize tool is used to resize a staff, that reduction is not incorporated in the scaling of the music spacing parameters.
Finale 2008/9/10/11/12/14, Sibelius 6/7.5, In Design CC 2015, Illustrator CS4

Knut
Posts: 867
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:07
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Various Line Settings

Post by Knut » 15 Nov 2015, 12:06

I stand corrected, Peter, you're absolutely right!
Thanks for pointing this out.

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 1304
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 14:25
Location: Raleigh, NC USA

Re: Various Line Settings

Post by John Ruggero » 15 Nov 2015, 18:58

I am going to ignore the previous discussion between Peter West and Knut for a moment, simply because I can take in only so much at a time, and return to Knut's reply to my post above. So back to kindergarten...

Knut, thank you for the correction, and the chart, and the reassurance that the values in my two charts are correct.

1. I am also reassured that the inches and centimeters in the Page Layout Menu>Resize Staff System dialogue box are REAL inches and centimeters as found on any ruler.

2. Thanks to your correction, more fog has lifted and I now understand that what I called a "Finale space" is limited to the Page Layout Menu>Resize Staff System dialogue box and that the space unit used in the Document Options settings and elsewhere is a REAL engraver's space. But this leaves me with a question:

Why does a relative distance, like an engraver's space, appear at all in the Resize Staff System dialogue box, which is setting real distances in real inches or centimeters for the whole system? Surely it isn't there simply for consistency, i.e., the desire to have the same list of units for every dialogue box?

At this point, I would remove these "Finale space" values from my chart above as having no significance.

3. I also now understand that what are called "inches" and "centimeters" in anything BUT the Page Layout Menu>Resize Staff System dialogue box (and also the rulers) are NOT real inches and centimeters. For example, only when the staff size is set to a .333 inch in Page Layout Menu>Resize Staff System dialogue box are any of the inches and centimeter settings in the Document Option actually correct values. What we have are "Finale inches" and "Finale centimeters" that expand and contract according to the staff size, like something out of the theory of relativity. I find this curious, to say the least, and it leaves me with a couple of questions:

Of what use are these flexible "Finale inches and centimeters", if they are not correct values and have to be multiplied by a staff percentage factor to be correct?

Why are they NOT correct? Surely it would be a simple matter for the program to make these values correspond to the appropriate staff size.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2,
Finale 2014d with GPO 4, JW Plug-ins, SmartScore X Pro, Adobe InDesign CS4,
Inkscape .48.5 and .91, FontForge 20150526
http://www.cantilenapress.com

Knut
Posts: 867
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:07
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Various Line Settings

Post by Knut » 15 Nov 2015, 21:50

Those are all good questions, John, and I don't really have an answer, except to say that Finale's page layout tool is already quite difficult to wrap one's head around, and distinguishing between relative and non-relative units throughout the program might complicate the user experience for the average user further if not the application code itself.

I'm with you in regarding metric and US customary units (except for points) as more or less useless within systems in a score, and spaces is just as irrelevant as a value independent of the staff size.

It'a important to know, however, that in Finale you have the ability to set the page reduction and system reduction independently, and that, as long as the page reduction is set to 100%, exact values still apply to things like page attached text and distances between staff systems. Personally, I like all aspects of the page to be consistent, even if I have to calculate all measurements to get the exact ones, which is why I've adopted Peter's practice of using page reduction exclusively to determine the staff size. but this is a whole other discussion.
Last edited by Knut on 16 Nov 2015, 06:51, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 1110
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 06:52
Location: Sweden

Re: Various Line Settings

Post by OCTO » 16 Nov 2015, 06:22

John: excellent questions. I am confused by that - confusion!
In Finale, I always set up staff size to be 100%. Than I choose if it will be 7, 6 or 5 mm.
In Sibelius it is simple: staff size is just real number in mm. No reduction.
Freelance Composer. Self-Publisher.
Finale 25 • Sibelius 2018 • MuseScore 2 • Logic Pro X • Ableton Live 9 • Digital Performer 9 /// OS X El Capitan, (side system: Debian 9, Windows 10)

Knut
Posts: 867
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:07
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Various Line Settings

Post by Knut » 16 Nov 2015, 07:23

OCTO wrote:John: excellent questions. I am confused by that - confusion!
In Finale, I always set up staff size to be 100%. Than I choose if it will be 7, 6 or 5 mm.
In Sibelius it is simple: staff size is just real number in mm. No reduction.
When setting up a document in the way you describe, Octo, without any page reduction, I don't think there is any difference between Finale and Sibelius. Both programs use absolute values to determine the staff size and for alignment of items assigned to the page. For items assigned to a system or staff, both also use relative values, which is the source of the confusion.

Peter West
Posts: 129
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:26
Location: Cornwall, England
Contact:

Re: Various Line Settings

Post by Peter West » 16 Nov 2015, 09:53

Unfortunately, when Finale was in v1.0, it was clear that the person who designed it intended it for simple charts, using 100% staff, page and system sizes. This will never cause any discrepancy between fixed scales (Cm, Inches) and relative scales (spaces.). Once you go beyond that, problems arise.

To minimise these problems I use the following work flow, which originates from working in version 1:

1. Set page size to 100%
2. Set system size to give the staff size I need
3. Only reduce staff size with the resize tool if 2 different seizes are needed.
4. Set spacing parameters
5. Enter all notes in scroll view. Spacing in scroll view uses exactly the spacing parameters set.
6. Once all notes are in, go to page view. Finale then justifies to the nearest possible spacing to scroll view.
7. Force a few bars here and there as necessary.

In my experience any other working method is vulnerable to the issues we've discussed.
Finale 2008/9/10/11/12/14, Sibelius 6/7.5, In Design CC 2015, Illustrator CS4

Knut
Posts: 867
Joined: 05 Oct 2015, 18:07
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Various Line Settings

Post by Knut » 16 Nov 2015, 10:14

Peter West wrote:Unfortunately, when Finale was in v1.0, it was clear that the person who designed it intended it for simple charts, using 100% staff, page and system sizes. This will never cause any discrepancy between fixed scales (Cm, Inches) and relative scales (spaces.). Once you go beyond that, problems arise.

To minimise these problems I use the following work flow, which originates from working in version 1:

1. Set page size to 100%
2. Set system size to give the staff size I need
3. Only reduce staff size with the resize tool if 2 different seizes are needed.
4. Set spacing parameters
5. Enter all notes in scroll view. Spacing in scroll view uses exactly the spacing parameters set.
6. Once all notes are in, go to page view. Finale then justifies to the nearest possible spacing to scroll view.
7. Force a few bars here and there as necessary.

In my experience any other working method is vulnerable to the issues we've discussed.
Peter, have you changed your page layout workflow over the years? I've adopted my workflow from one of your posts on the Finale forum some years ago, and it was based exclusively on page reduction, not system reduction. My workflow is pretty much the same as yours, except for the first two points:

1. Set system size to 100%
2. Set page size to give the staff size I need.

This way, all elements in the score will be reduced by the same amount. If absolute values are needed for text, the size is set to fixed.

Post Reply