Italian question

[John Ruggero]

Welcome to Notat.io. musicus! I see you took me up on that.

There is actually a thread on the the op. 106 metronome markings at Notat.io that might interest you.

As we all know, metronome markings are approximate at best and complex pieces of music like the first movement of op. 106 that have a lot of mood changes often have a fluctuating tempo. In my opinion Beethoven's marking is a precaution to tell players that the piece is to be played very rapidly and brilliantly rather than in a majestic way, since the opening can go either way. It might reach about 138 to the half note at its very fastest (for those with the ability to play the most brilliant passages at that tempo) and go down as much as 116 or slower at other moments. So it's not impossible to play the piece following his directions. One just has to consider some of the directions to be non-literal, the same way one usually considers metronome markings. The markings of the other movements are probably to be taken a more literally, and in my opinion, are exactly right for these movements.

The tragedy of it is that that first movement metronome marking seems to loom so large in pianist's minds that they tend to play the movement less musically that other pieces by Beethoven.

[John Ruggero]

MichelRE, perhaps the problem is that we don't have a standard Italian musical phrase that means to hold the pedal down without lifting it for a section or a whole piece, and we badly need one. Even "pedal sempre alla fine" leaves a little room for doubt since some literalists might consider it to describe what pianists do in pieces like the first movement of the Moonlight that use constant syncopated pedaling throughout.

[MichelRE]

John, that's where the use of "con ped. sempre" (or even "alla fine") would differentiate from simply writing "ped. alla fine".
though I image someone could write something very specific like "tieni ped. (fino) alla fine" or something.

seeing "con ped. sempre" to me would imply the heavy continued use of pedal, and not the continuous holding of the pedal (ie: without ever lifting it.)

[John Ruggero]

Unfortunately, it all remains a little murky since to my knowledge these terms have never really been nailed down. To me "con Ped." means that the sustaining pedal is to be used more often than not, with the details left somewhat up to the player. "con Ped. sempre" would mean, as you said, continuous syncopated pedaling. If the piece used those two indications, then "ped. sempre alla fine" might be sufficient to indicate holding the pedal down without lifting it until the very end. But until these have become standard, I think that there is still a chance that the latter might be misunderstood. I can imagine a student asking me to confirm it. So that it why I originally suggested something a little more specific.

Fingering is another area of piano notation that has not been sufficiently standardized.

[MichelRE]

I'm lucky in that sense, I rarely resort to Italian expressions, preferring to simply use my native tongue (French), where if I really needed the pedal to be held until the end I could simply write "hold the pedal until the end" (tenir la pedal jusqu'à la fin.)

It would appear that scores by English, French, Italian, and German composers (and to an extent Russian) now basically simply use their mother tongues as a "lingua franca" in their scores.

I've even come across a few scores by Nordic composers where they used their mother tongues.

Who knows, maybe the era of the all-encompassing Italian terminology is now over?

[musicus]

Generally, I agree. As a pianist, I translate "con ped." to "with pedal." Still, that is open to interpretation, as you suggest. The question is how much pedal, and when. Then there are the variances of acoustics in rooms, halls, studios, number of people, etc. Then the pedaling is adjusted. If we compare new music with old music, we see - generally - an increase in the performance instructions in new music, the composer ostensibly trying to get performances to mirror as closely as possible what he/she had in mind. As a composer, I try to think of the basics and I try to limit the amount of non-musical indications. When we think of Bach, we see how few non-musical indications he wrote down, as compared with newer music up until nowadays. Sometimes I wish he had been more specific, but on the other hand, what a blessing to not be imprisoned by compositional controls, to be free, musically. Even with, say, the tempo of the Moonlight sonata 1st mvt., even though I feel the tempo should be rather faster than generally played, I will sometimes want to play it quite slow and the melody quite louder than PP - just because I want to.

Unfortunately, it all remains a little murky since to my knowledge these terms have never really been nailed down. To me "con Ped." means that the sustaining pedal is to be used more often than not, with the details left somewhat up to the player. "con Ped. sempre" would mean, as you said, continuous syncopated pedaling. If the piece used those two indications, then "ped. sempre alla fine" might be sufficient to indicate holding the pedal down without lifting it until the very end. But until these have become standard, I think that there is still a chance that the latter might be misunderstood. I can imagine a student asking me to confirm it. So that it why I originally suggested something a little more specific.

Fingering is another area of piano notation that has not been sufficiently standardized.

[John Ruggero]

I'm with you on the Moonlight, musicus. It's in 2/2 not 4/4 and I generally play it at about 38 to the half note. And on markings. The fewer the better.

"Hold the pedal until the end" sounds good to me, MichelRE, especially in French.

[MichelRE]

"Hold the pedal until the end" sounds good to me, MichelRE, especially in French.

hey, gotta be honest, even ordering a "big mac and large fries hold the pickles" sounds good in French

[Harpsichordmaker]

What about “Tenere il pedale abbassato fino alla fine”?

[John Ruggero]

The Italian sounds good too.